flux reports: there needs to be more of a pe ... #1572

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yourland-report · 2022-03-14T01:09:48Z

yourland-report commented

2022-03-14 01:09:48 +00:00

flux reports a bug:

there needs to be more of a penalty for dying too often in a short period of time. people shouldn't be able to exploit that mechanic so much.

Player position:

{
	y = 20.5,
	x = 1278.1560058594,
	z = 852.11700439453
}

Player look:

{
	y = -0.76300686597824,
	x = -0.57867842912674,
	z = -0.28801357746124
}

Player information:

{
	min_rtt = 0.15899999439716,
	max_rtt = 1.692999958992,
	connection_uptime = 22866,
	max_jitter = 1.4629999399185,
	minor = 6,
	major = 5,
	ip_version = 6,
	formspec_version = 5,
	patch = 0,
	protocol_version = 39,
	serialization_version = 28,
	lang_code = "",
	version_string = "5.6.0-dev-9683cc17c",
	avg_rtt = 0.17499999701977,
	state = "Active",
	avg_jitter = 0.010000005364418,
	min_jitter = 0
}

Player meta:

{
	fields = {
		["3d_armor_inventory"] = "return {\"3d_armor:helmet_rainbow 1 2080\", \"3d_armor:leggings_rainbow 1 2080\", \"3d_armor:chestplate_rainbow 1 2080\", \"shields:shield_nether 1 10400\", \"nether_mobs:dragon_boots 1 5200\", \"\"}",
		["petz:werewolf_vignette_id"] = "20",
		["petz:werewolf"] = "1",
		jointime = "1615351173",
		yl_commons_player_joined = "1647197342",
		["signslib:pos"] = "(1278,70,540)",
		digged_nodes = "944104",
		["petz:old_override_table"] = "return {[\"new_move\"] = true, [\"sneak\"] = true, [\"sneak_glitch\"] = false, [\"jump\"] = 1.5, [\"speed\"] = 2, [\"gravity\"] = 1}",
		bitten = "0",
		["unified_inventory:bags"] = "return {\"water_life:croc_bag\", \"water_life:croc_bag\", \"water_life:croc_bag\", \"water_life:croc_bag\"}",
		partychat = "party",
		punch_count = "62686",
		["petz:lycanthropy"] = "1",
		yl_church = "return {[\"last_death\"] = {[\"y\"] = 39, [\"x\"] = -241, [\"z\"] = -2078}, [\"last_heal\"] = 1615504208, [\"last_death_portal\"] = 1644977020}",
		yl_commons_thankyou = "93",
		["stamina:level"] = "12.65",
		xp = "1123965",
		arenalib_infobox_arenaID = "0",
		inflicted_damage = "959762",
		crafted = "28628",
		["petz:werewolf_clan_idx"] = "1",
		played_time = "11484773",
		died = "60",
		placed_nodes = "329530",
		hud_state = "on",
		repellant = "0",
		yl_commons_player_created = "1615351173"
	}
}

Log identifier


[MOD] yl_report log identifier = mhZABitiOq64R9P1t1EXmsywkFgLcgPT

Profiler save:

profile-20220314T020947.json_pretty

Status:

# Server: version=5.4.1-yl, uptime=1.10304e+06, max_lag=5.95457, clients={Sokomine3, Hulda, RIPBla, DreamNotFound, Fishy, Silvercastle, Bailiff, AliasAlreadyTaken, MicaelStarfire, Player249, annah, shanish, shanish2, flux, guestxmart, LeetPeet}

Teleport command:

/teleport xyz 1278 21 852

Compass command:

/give_compass Construction mhZABitiOq64R9P1t1EXmsywkFgLcgPT D2691E 1278 21 852

flux reports a bug: > there needs to be more of a penalty for dying too often in a short period of time. people shouldn't be able to exploit that mechanic so much. Player position: ``` { y = 20.5, x = 1278.1560058594, z = 852.11700439453 } ``` Player look: ``` { y = -0.76300686597824, x = -0.57867842912674, z = -0.28801357746124 } ``` Player information: ``` { min_rtt = 0.15899999439716, max_rtt = 1.692999958992, connection_uptime = 22866, max_jitter = 1.4629999399185, minor = 6, major = 5, ip_version = 6, formspec_version = 5, patch = 0, protocol_version = 39, serialization_version = 28, lang_code = "", version_string = "5.6.0-dev-9683cc17c", avg_rtt = 0.17499999701977, state = "Active", avg_jitter = 0.010000005364418, min_jitter = 0 } ``` Player meta: ``` { fields = { ["3d_armor_inventory"] = "return {\"3d_armor:helmet_rainbow 1 2080\", \"3d_armor:leggings_rainbow 1 2080\", \"3d_armor:chestplate_rainbow 1 2080\", \"shields:shield_nether 1 10400\", \"nether_mobs:dragon_boots 1 5200\", \"\"}", ["petz:werewolf_vignette_id"] = "20", ["petz:werewolf"] = "1", jointime = "1615351173", yl_commons_player_joined = "1647197342", ["signslib:pos"] = "(1278,70,540)", digged_nodes = "944104", ["petz:old_override_table"] = "return {[\"new_move\"] = true, [\"sneak\"] = true, [\"sneak_glitch\"] = false, [\"jump\"] = 1.5, [\"speed\"] = 2, [\"gravity\"] = 1}", bitten = "0", ["unified_inventory:bags"] = "return {\"water_life:croc_bag\", \"water_life:croc_bag\", \"water_life:croc_bag\", \"water_life:croc_bag\"}", partychat = "party", punch_count = "62686", ["petz:lycanthropy"] = "1", yl_church = "return {[\"last_death\"] = {[\"y\"] = 39, [\"x\"] = -241, [\"z\"] = -2078}, [\"last_heal\"] = 1615504208, [\"last_death_portal\"] = 1644977020}", yl_commons_thankyou = "93", ["stamina:level"] = "12.65", xp = "1123965", arenalib_infobox_arenaID = "0", inflicted_damage = "959762", crafted = "28628", ["petz:werewolf_clan_idx"] = "1", played_time = "11484773", died = "60", placed_nodes = "329530", hud_state = "on", repellant = "0", yl_commons_player_created = "1615351173" } } ``` Log identifier ``` [MOD] yl_report log identifier = mhZABitiOq64R9P1t1EXmsywkFgLcgPT ``` Profiler save: ``` profile-20220314T020947.json_pretty ``` Status: ``` # Server: version=5.4.1-yl, uptime=1.10304e+06, max_lag=5.95457, clients={Sokomine3, Hulda, RIPBla, DreamNotFound, Fishy, Silvercastle, Bailiff, AliasAlreadyTaken, MicaelStarfire, Player249, annah, shanish, shanish2, flux, guestxmart, LeetPeet} ``` Teleport command: ``` /teleport xyz 1278 21 852 ``` Compass command: ``` /give_compass Construction mhZABitiOq64R9P1t1EXmsywkFgLcgPT D2691E 1278 21 852 ```

👎 2

AliasAlreadyTaken was assigned by yourland-report

2022-03-14 01:09:48 +00:00

flux commented

2022-03-14 01:24:15 +00:00

i've got an idea of a "fair" solution as a mod.

keep an exponential moving average of the rate at which a player is dying.
if they exceed a certain threshold, induce a penalty.
if they continue to push the limit, make the penalty worse.
if they stop, lower or remove the penalty after a while

some ideas for what a "penalty" could be:

have your move_speed lowered
lower maximum HP
lower maximum armor (not sure how possible that is)
contents of bags also go to bones when dying
bones don't even appear (stuff drops on floor)
lose your home point
respawn at a random coordinate in the world
remove interact priv

i sorted them to how severe i think they are, i don't expect you'd approve of this full list, or any of it.

i've got an idea of a "fair" solution as a mod. * keep an [exponential moving average](https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Moving_average&oldid=1069105690#Exponential_moving_average) of the rate at which a player is dying. * if they exceed a certain threshold, induce a penalty. * if they continue to push the limit, make the penalty worse. * if they stop, lower or remove the penalty after a while some ideas for what a "penalty" could be: * have your move_speed lowered * lower maximum HP * lower maximum armor (not sure how possible that is) * contents of *bags* also go to bones when dying * bones don't even appear (stuff drops on floor) * lose your home point * respawn at a random coordinate in the world * remove interact priv i sorted them to how severe i think they are, i don't expect you'd approve of this full list, or any of it.

👎 2

flux added the

1. kind/enhancement

1. kind/balancing

labels 2022-03-14 01:24:32 +00:00

AliasAlreadyTaken commented

2022-03-14 12:29:48 +00:00

Good idea. Death needs to be something uncomfortable and must not yield any positive effects. Current positive effects are people gain a death portal and bones, which they craft to bonemeal. Current negative effects are they lose their items and some xp.

The loss of xp can be mitigated when they just levelled up or lost so much that they start from 0.

Losing items only happens to the explorers, not those who die on purpose.

Let's disable the /killme command or - better - replace it with a /spawn command.
There is already a "second death within one minute" detection in xp_redo, the death_limiter. https://gitea.your-land.de/your-land/xp_redo/src/branch/yl_stable/builtin.lua#L81
Losing stuff like homepoints or interact is an interesting idea, but without explanation it will create a lot of questions. Respawning at random coordinates could even be seen as a feature and exploited.
Losing speed or armour or similar won't deter the death-abusers.

I'd rather go for making death non-abusable, like removing the positive effects. Let's remove the crafting recipe where you can make bonemeal from the bones block and add a homeportal to the church. The home portal may still be more expensive or have no free version or similar, that's up to balancing. Also let's make the death message configurable via yl_settings.

Good idea. Death needs to be something uncomfortable and must not yield any positive effects. Current positive effects are people gain a death portal and bones, which they craft to bonemeal. Current negative effects are they lose their items and some xp. The loss of xp can be mitigated when they just levelled up or lost so much that they start from 0. Losing items only happens to the explorers, not those who die on purpose. 1. Let's disable the `/killme` command or - better - replace it with a `/spawn` command. 2. There is already a "second death within one minute" detection in xp_redo, the death_limiter. https://gitea.your-land.de/your-land/xp_redo/src/branch/yl_stable/builtin.lua#L81 3. Losing stuff like homepoints or interact is an interesting idea, but without explanation it will create a lot of questions. Respawning at random coordinates could even be seen as a feature and exploited. 4. Losing speed or armour or similar won't deter the death-abusers. I'd rather go for making death non-abusable, like removing the positive effects. Let's remove the crafting recipe where you can make bonemeal from the bones block and add a homeportal to the church. The home portal may still be more expensive or have no free version or similar, that's up to balancing. Also let's make the death message configurable via yl_settings.

👍 1 👎 1

Bla commented

2022-03-14 14:22:31 +00:00

some ideas

per death in the last hour

chance to not get the bones block on digging/emptying with pretty steep multiplier
add a priest gold multiplier +1 gold, the opposite of the free portal per hour
higher chance to loose items + if nether deaths chance to loose backpack item
additional armor damage multiplier
5min jail time for death spamming starting at 3rd/4th death, reroute portal/home to jail :-)
portal/tp cooldown multiplier starting from the 3rd death +1min
more banshees

misc

Change bones block -> bonemeal to be the worst recipe so it still has a use except deco.
like 2/4 bones = 1 bonemeal
add a 30min/1h cooldown to /killme

some ideas per death in the last hour - chance to not get the bones block on digging/emptying with pretty steep multiplier - add a priest gold multiplier +1 gold, the opposite of the free portal per hour - higher chance to loose items + if nether deaths chance to loose backpack item - additional armor damage multiplier - 5min jail time for death spamming starting at 3rd/4th death, reroute portal/home to jail :-) - portal/tp cooldown multiplier starting from the 3rd death +1min - more banshees misc - Change bones block -> bonemeal to be the worst recipe so it still has a use except deco. like 2/4 bones = 1 bonemeal - add a 30min/1h cooldown to /killme

👎 1

flux commented

2022-03-14 16:18:33 +00:00

Let's disable the /killme command or - better - replace it with a /spawn command.

I think this is a good idea, or Bla's suggestion of at least having a cooldown on /killme.

There is already a "second death within one minute" detection in xp_redo, the death_limiter. https://gitea.your-land.de/your-land/xp_redo/src/branch/yl_stable/builtin.lua#L81

This currently seems to just give a grace period of 1 minute, so you won't lose too much XP if your house is being camped by e.g. a banshee.

Let's remove the crafting recipe where you can make bonemeal from the bones block

I also like this, I thought we already had an open issue, but I can't find it. Perhaps we just talked about it.

add a homeportal to the church. The home portal may still be more expensive or have no free version or similar, that's up to balancing. Also let's make the death message configurable via yl_settings.

I'm not sure I understand what's suggested here. Do you mean, get rid of the /home command, and make it so you can only go to your "home" via the priest? Would this be in addition to the death portal, or instead of the death portal?

Further, there's (at least) 3 different kinds of death-exploiting behavior:

One is to get a lot of "bones" nodes, which is relatively easy to limit - perhaps you can only get 1 such item per hour from your own bones; after that, the bones work like normal but don't give you a bones node.
Some players use death to basically brute-force their way through difficult fights or areas. I'm pretty sure that a lot of the repeated death messages we've been getting recently, are because the player has set their home in the nether, and is using that as a way of bypassing paying the priest. This was what I was thinking of when I suggested disabling "/home"; making it a function of the priest would also work.
There's also players who create 2nd accounts (or more!) so that they don't risk losing XP/items in a dangerous area. This is what I was thinking of with the movement speed/HP penalties. If it becomes totally impossible to keep fighting your way through the nether, this option becomes much less attractive.

Some more ideas:

Disallow home points in the nether
Bla suggests that the cost of the priest should go up if used too frequently. I think "1 gold" is fine for maybe the first 3/4 times in an hour, but then perhaps the cost should go up as O(n^2) or such. Or, progressively more valuable items should be required - mese, diamond, mithril, rainbow.

Also, a lot of confusion from "unexpected" mechanics could be somewhat mitigated w/ a warning to the player in chat, particularly if it is colored red and comes with an alert noise.

> 1. Let's disable the `/killme` command or - better - replace it with a `/spawn` command. I think this is a good idea, or Bla's suggestion of at least having a cooldown on /killme. > 2. There is already a "second death within one minute" detection in xp_redo, the death_limiter. https://gitea.your-land.de/your-land/xp_redo/src/branch/yl_stable/builtin.lua#L81 This currently seems to just give a grace period of 1 minute, so you won't lose too much XP if your house is being camped by e.g. a banshee. > Let's remove the crafting recipe where you can make bonemeal from the bones block I also like this, I thought we already had an open issue, but I can't find it. Perhaps we just talked about it. > add a homeportal to the church. The home portal may still be more expensive or have no free version or similar, that's up to balancing. Also let's make the death message configurable via yl_settings. I'm not sure I understand what's suggested here. Do you mean, get rid of the /home command, and make it so you can only go to your "home" via the priest? Would this be in addition to the death portal, or instead of the death portal? Further, there's (at least) 3 different kinds of death-exploiting behavior: * One is to get a lot of "bones" nodes, which is relatively easy to limit - perhaps you can only get 1 such item per hour from your own bones; after that, the bones work like normal but don't give you a bones node. * Some players use death to basically brute-force their way through difficult fights or areas. I'm pretty sure that a lot of the repeated death messages we've been getting recently, are because the player has *set their home in the nether*, and is using that as a way of bypassing paying the priest. This was what I was thinking of when I suggested disabling "/home"; making it a function of the priest would also work. * There's also players who create 2nd accounts (or more!) so that they don't risk losing XP/items in a dangerous area. This is what I was thinking of with the movement speed/HP penalties. If it becomes totally impossible to keep fighting your way through the nether, this option becomes much less attractive. Some more ideas: * Disallow home points in the nether * Bla suggests that the cost of the priest should go up if used too frequently. I think "1 gold" is fine for maybe the first 3/4 times in an hour, but then perhaps the cost should go up as O(n^2) or such. Or, progressively more valuable items should be required - mese, diamond, mithril, rainbow. Also, a lot of confusion from "unexpected" mechanics could be somewhat mitigated w/ a warning to the player in chat, particularly if it is colored red and comes with an alert noise.

👎 1

Bla commented

2022-03-14 17:11:23 +00:00

Or, progressively more valuable items should be required - mese, diamond, mithril, rainbow.

Also thought about that but it would distribute the impact. most players have atleast a stack of each of those and would accept loosing some of each.
I think it is a more "visible" effect if its always the same ressource.
Switching from gold ingot to gold block per death after a couple deaths would be a nice idea because it would quickly increase the impact after a set threshold. But could also prevent bankrupting newbies because they would have to craft it first instead of blindly clicking through the dialog.

> > >Or, progressively more valuable items should be required - mese, diamond, mithril, rainbow. > Also thought about that but it would distribute the impact. most players have atleast a stack of each of those and would accept loosing some of each. I think it is a more "visible" effect if its always the same ressource. Switching from gold ingot to gold block per death after a couple deaths would be a nice idea because it would quickly increase the impact after a set threshold. But could also prevent bankrupting newbies because they would have to craft it first instead of blindly clicking through the dialog.

flux commented

2022-03-15 02:19:39 +00:00

Another possible idea:

Instead of (or in addition to) gold or other items, the priest may require XP to teleport to bones (after 1 or more uses). the XP needed would scale to your player level. This could perhaps result in losing a level, or requiring the player the player get enough XP through other means in order to pay the priest.

Another possible idea: * Instead of (or in addition to) gold or other items, the priest may require XP to teleport to bones (after 1 or more uses). the XP needed would scale to your player level. This could perhaps result in losing a level, or requiring the player the player get enough XP through other means in order to pay the priest.

flux commented

2022-03-15 02:26:57 +00:00

The problem of a player using alts to avoid (or reduce) the penalties is really difficult w/out some way of identifying the alts.

Verbana has a command for tagging a given account as an alt of another account (though this feature is a bit rough and needs some attention). It can be used to automatically apply an existing player penalty to any number of accounts. Perhaps a similar process could help w/ player death mechanics. Say, if one alt dies, all accounts tied to the alt lose XP as if they'd died themselves.

Tagging of alts would have to be a manual process, though knowing whether players shared an IP (or network) would be a valuable piece of information to know when applying such a tag.

I certainly don't want to prevent people from creating alts - i've personally used them to test various bugs/game mechanics, though i mostly use the test server these days. But people shouldn't be using alts to get around the aims of the server w.r.t. survival and experience scaling.

The problem of a player using alts to avoid (or reduce) the penalties is really difficult w/out some way of identifying the alts. Verbana has a command for tagging a given account as an alt of another account (though this feature is a bit rough and needs some attention). It can be used to automatically apply an existing player penalty to any number of accounts. Perhaps a similar process could help w/ player death mechanics. Say, if one alt dies, *all* accounts tied to the alt lose XP as if they'd died themselves. Tagging of alts would have to be a manual process, though knowing whether players shared an IP (or network) would be a valuable piece of information to know when applying such a tag. I certainly don't want to prevent people from creating alts - i've personally used them to test various bugs/game mechanics, though i mostly use the test server these days. But people shouldn't be using alts to get around the aims of the server w.r.t. survival and experience scaling.

GIuseppe commented

2022-03-18 10:42:21 +00:00

Some players use /killme to create a portal to teleport other players to the same location.

Others use a second account to explore the nether with home in the nether and this often results in many consecutive deaths in a short time with death message spam

The first problem can be solved by making the portal usable only by the player who opened it,
the second can be solved by disabling the death message.

If the problem is to avoid the negative effects of the abuse of a behavior, I think it is enough to eliminate the positive effects.

Then if you want to change the rules of the game it's another matter and therefore you can decide to make the game harder by increasing the cost of a death.

But there are players who are really in trouble against a monster or in an awkward position and who trying to recover their bones die several times. Making the game harder in my opinion wouldn't be fair.

However I think we can work on the loss of xp by going backwards with the levels and this, in my opinion, would be enough to make players more cautious without the security of the acquired level.

Some players use /killme to create a portal to teleport other players to the same location. Others use a second account to explore the nether with home in the nether and this often results in many consecutive deaths in a short time with death message spam The first problem can be solved by making the portal usable only by the player who opened it, the second can be solved by disabling the death message. If the problem is to avoid the negative effects of the abuse of a behavior, I think it is enough to eliminate the positive effects. Then if you want to change the rules of the game it's another matter and therefore you can decide to make the game harder by increasing the cost of a death. But there are players who are really in trouble against a monster or in an awkward position and who trying to recover their bones die several times. Making the game harder in my opinion wouldn't be fair. However I think we can work on the loss of xp by going backwards with the levels and this, in my opinion, would be enough to make players more cautious without the security of the acquired level.

Bla commented

2022-03-18 13:05:01 +00:00

Loosing xp or level doesnt have an impact as long as you can still go to the nether with your lvl 0 alt because levels have no real impact on fighting because you can supply armour everything needed from your main.
That would only disadvantage normal players.

The priest demanding xp is a nice idea overall and could replace gold but it would penalize normal players twice(death xp loss + priest xp cost).
death abusers wouldnt care and just switch to another alt or just gather the needed xp for a lvl 0 portal.

I think the best approach will be time based with a steep multiplier, a mix between cooldowns and time to gather the needed materials.
That wouldn´t affect the normal player that occasionally dies a couple of times in a short period(new players in mine or at night, voice attacks) to hard.
But would slow down death abusers with steep multipliers for cooldowns & portal price.
As an example player died 5 times in the last 15mins

cooldown time 5min, either blocked teleport(no portal/home) or jail time
portal price already increased before that by 1 each death to 4 gold ingots, now its 1 gold block
death in the next 5min portal price +1 gold block & +5min cooldown time
no death in the next 5min reduces the price & cooldown by one step

Loosing xp or level doesnt have an impact as long as you can still go to the nether with your lvl 0 alt because levels have no real impact on fighting because you can supply armour everything needed from your main. That would only disadvantage normal players. The priest demanding xp is a nice idea overall and could replace gold but it would penalize normal players twice(death xp loss + priest xp cost). death abusers wouldnt care and just switch to another alt or just gather the needed xp for a lvl 0 portal. I think the best approach will be time based with a steep multiplier, a mix between cooldowns and time to gather the needed materials. That wouldn´t affect the normal player that occasionally dies a couple of times in a short period(new players in mine or at night, voice attacks) to hard. But would slow down death abusers with steep multipliers for cooldowns & portal price. As an example player died 5 times in the last 15mins - cooldown time 5min, either blocked teleport(no portal/home) or jail time - portal price already increased before that by 1 each death to 4 gold ingots, now its 1 gold block - death in the next 5min portal price +1 gold block & +5min cooldown time - no death in the next 5min reduces the price & cooldown by one step

osmal commented

2022-03-18 22:37:48 +00:00

Idea: Getting Bones once in a defined time (1hour for example), the others times u die u can dig the bones to get your items but the bones itself will not get picked to inventory, so that if a player die multiple times not intentionally but because of strong monsters they dont suffer penalty. (i must be one of the rare persons who dont care for bones & even trash them a lot xD)

flux commented

2022-03-20 04:38:43 +00:00

Yet More Ideas after talking to players:

the "functionality" of your death point could vary depending on your level. if you are very low level, nothing valuable gets stored in your bones, and you can't bring in high-level help repeatedly.
induces penalties in a different way if you die a lot. e.g. ... something i forget
instead of, or in addition to losing XP on death, lose XP if you need to create a death portal, and for each other player you let use your death portal, scaled to how much XP that player has.

Yet More Ideas after talking to players: * the "functionality" of your death point could vary depending on your level. if you are very low level, nothing valuable gets stored in your bones, and you can't bring in high-level help repeatedly. * induces penalties in a different way if you die a lot. e.g. ... something i forget * instead of, or in addition to losing XP on death, lose XP if you need to create a death portal, and for each other player you let use your death portal, scaled to how much XP that player has.

flux referenced this issue

2022-03-31 17:51:24 +00:00

debiankaios reports: add land-connection for cities ... #1609

flux referenced this issue

2022-05-07 20:34:44 +00:00

Bla reports: /home & spawn shouldnt work if ... #1889

flux commented

2022-05-16 04:08:30 +00:00

#1889: players shouldn't be able to use /home or /spawn to escape dying from damage; the implied fix was to only allow teleporting via such commands when your HP is above a certain level.

we could possibly go the route of disallowing "fast travel" (/home or /spawn) while a mob has targeted you, you are falling, and similar.

#1889: players shouldn't be able to use /home or /spawn to escape dying from damage; the implied fix was to only allow teleporting via such commands when your HP is above a certain level. we could possibly go the route of disallowing "fast travel" (/home or /spawn) while a mob has targeted you, you are falling, and similar.

flux added this to the flux's TODO list project 2022-07-02 20:03:43 +00:00

flux commented

2022-07-09 18:04:06 +00:00

I'm not ready to move forward with further discussion of most of the ideas here, but I've created a "timeout" in the bones mod so that players only get a bones node from their own bones once an hour:

I'm not ready to move forward with further discussion of most of the ideas here, but I've created a "timeout" in the bones mod so that players only get a bones node from their own bones once an hour: * https://gitea.your-land.de/your-land/bones/commit/f4b4d6aa4fd063f31d3dde0feb1a524786874fbf * https://gitea.your-land.de/your-land/bones/commit/948b1f4976c7e0831f4a7814368c43ae51f45d7d

flux referenced this issue

2022-08-17 23:03:19 +00:00

mrminer reports: Suggestion: When death portali ... #2478

flux added the

4. step/discussion

label 2022-09-12 17:21:11 +00:00

flux added the

2. prio/interesting

label 2022-10-06 02:55:54 +00:00

flux added the

2. prio/elevated

label 2022-10-26 00:16:10 +00:00

flux self-assigned this 2022-10-26 00:16:24 +00:00

flux added the

2. prio/controversial

label 2022-11-14 04:33:23 +00:00

flux referenced this issue

2022-11-14 04:57:38 +00:00

we are making changes #3039

flux referenced this issue

2022-11-22 23:22:08 +00:00

Suggestion: Death compass and better recovery of bones #3097

flux referenced this issue

2022-12-17 02:00:59 +00:00

mrminer reports: make /killme not loose xp ... #3253

niceride commented

2023-01-21 06:21:23 +00:00

Suggestion: Death portal will not always be able to teleport player directly onto top of bones, that is true for many reasons, however before going into death portal we should have some kind of idea of how many nodes distance the portal endpoint will be from the player bones (and whose player bones are we going to / that this portal is trying to target?).

A repeatable quirk right now is to jump off the sailship in the sky, fall until not in protected area, /killme, then try to use portal. If portal manages to line up with your bones X,Z the Y-axis will almost certainly be wrong in some fatal direction; a few times repeating this and you can get the portal to end up on your now-stack-of-bones pile. If the logic is too difficult to fix at least have some kind of hint.

Also is this portal supposed to only be for bones recovery ? What does a death where no bones form do?... i.e. if you don't form bones why should the location change? That would be a case of "I'm sorry, there are no bones to teleport to" actually would be helpful as a negative confirming result. If you don't get that message, then for sure bones are there and it should tell you how many nodes distance the portal endpoint will be from the bones. Teleporting to get your bones and then dying some unknown distance in another location at whatever unnamed destination you happened to warp through is where the frustration comes from, not so much that it's wrong but that it's non-sensical and there's nothing to be informed about or learn from when it goes wrong.

Suggestion: Death portal will not always be able to teleport player directly onto top of bones, that is true for many reasons, however before going into death portal we should have some kind of idea of how many nodes distance the portal endpoint will be from the player bones (and whose player bones are we going to / that this portal is trying to target?). A repeatable quirk right now is to jump off the sailship in the sky, fall until not in protected area, /killme, then try to use portal. If portal manages to line up with your bones X,Z the Y-axis will almost certainly be wrong in some fatal direction; a few times repeating this and you can get the portal to end up on your now-stack-of-bones pile. If the logic is too difficult to fix at least have some kind of hint. Also is this portal supposed to only be for bones recovery ? What does a death where no bones form do?... i.e. if you don't form bones why should the location change? That would be a case of "I'm sorry, there are no bones to teleport to" actually would be helpful as a negative confirming result. If you don't get that message, then for sure bones are there and it should tell you how many nodes distance the portal endpoint will be from the bones. Teleporting to get your bones and then dying some unknown distance in another location at whatever unnamed destination you happened to warp through is where the frustration comes from, not so much that it's wrong but that it's non-sensical and there's nothing to be informed about or learn from when it goes wrong.

flux commented

2023-01-21 19:50:31 +00:00

Death portal will not always be able to teleport player directly onto top of bones

the priest teleports you to where you died. your bones might not be there for a variety of reasons, though they will be nearby. the exception to that is if you die while you are very far above ground - the logic tries to place your bones on the ground, so you can get to them.

jump off the sailship in the sky, fall until not in protected area, /killme, then try to use portal

what in the world are you trying to do? this sounds like a really weird case to design anything around.

is this portal supposed to only be for bones recovery?

no, it's only somewhat related to bone recovery.

there's nothing to be informed about or learn from when it goes wrong

fair, it does seem like the player should be informed of the location of their bones when they die, not the location of their death. but that's a separate topic from what this issue is about.

> Death portal will not always be able to teleport player directly onto top of bones the priest teleports you to where you died. your bones might not be there for a variety of reasons, though they will be nearby. the exception to that is if you die while you are very far above ground - the logic tries to place your bones on the ground, so you can get to them. > jump off the sailship in the sky, fall until not in protected area, /killme, then try to use portal what in the world are you trying to do? this sounds like a really weird case to design anything around. > is this portal supposed to only be for bones recovery? no, it's only somewhat related to bone recovery. > there's nothing to be informed about or learn from when it goes wrong fair, it does seem like the player should be informed of the location of their bones when they die, not the location of their death. but that's a separate topic from what this issue is about.

flux referenced this issue

2023-04-28 23:11:01 +00:00

daydream reports: stop players using /sethome in ... #4288

flux referenced this issue

2023-05-15 18:35:13 +00:00

testserver Can't sethome #4457

flux referenced this issue

2023-05-24 16:38:05 +00:00

Azelf reports: Discussion about the use of al ... #4588

DragonWrangler commented

2023-11-28 01:03:14 +00:00

after reviewing this, I think there should only be a penalty when using /killme. Because suppose a player was in the nether and an evoker spawned behind them ? the evoker would naturally spawn a lot of vex and constantly kill them. They shouldn't receive a penalty for something they can't even control.

Bla commented

2023-11-28 06:37:41 +00:00

after reviewing this, I think there should only be a penalty when using /killme. Because suppose a player was in the nether and an evoker spawned behind them ? the evoker would naturally spawn a lot of vex and constantly kill them.

if you restrict it to just /killme that would be exactly what players will do to get around that 😉

They shouldn't receive a penalty for something they can't even control.

They can´t control if they die in nether but nobody forces them to go back there over and over again.

> after reviewing this, I think there should only be a penalty when using /killme. Because suppose a player was in the nether and an evoker spawned behind them ? the evoker would naturally spawn a lot of vex and constantly kill them. if you restrict it to just /killme that would be exactly what players will do to get around that 😉 > They shouldn't receive a penalty for something they can't even control. They can´t control if they die in nether but nobody forces them to go back there over and over again.

DragonWrangler commented

2023-11-28 12:32:58 +00:00

if you restrict it to just /killme that would be exactly what players will do to get around that

True, they might, but why would anyone go to the nether to abuse death ? There is pretty much no advantage. Maybe a bone block once in a while, but that’s it.

There are a few things that might help with alts using /killme

Disable /killme death messages. Advantage: this will stop potentially spammy players from annoying others.
stop bones dropping from bone blocks, instead make them craftable. Advantage: this will make players stop dying to get bone blocks.
(this one I’m not sure about) remove the xp penalty for /killme. Advantage this help will stop players from using Alts to /killme rather than their main.
make it so that only alts get a penalty. Advantage: players would be less likely to use an alt if it has to pay 10 gold per dp, or 1 rainbow ingot per dp.
if an alt is detected dying more than 5 times in 5 minutes then the main loses 50% of the xp it has accumulated. Advantage: will help stop players from using alts to get around the xp limits.

And in issue #3253

AliasAlreadyTaken said:

Some people would try to do /killme right before they impact the ground or be killed by a monster and die anyways, creating a convenient way to get around the xp penalty.

Fix for that. Make it so that players can’t do /killme when falling or being targeted by a mob.

Flux said:

Disallow home points in the nether

+1
There is really no reason for anyone to set home in the nether.

--

Edit by Alias: Please use 1. instead of #, that might tag other issues :P

> if you restrict it to just /killme that would be exactly what players will do to get around that True, they might, but why would anyone go to the nether to abuse death ? There is pretty much no advantage. Maybe a bone block once in a while, but that’s it. There are a few things that might help with alts using /killme 1. Disable /killme death messages. Advantage: this will stop potentially spammy players from annoying others. 2. stop bones dropping from bone blocks, instead make them craftable. Advantage: this will make players stop dying to get bone blocks. 3. (this one I’m not sure about) remove the xp penalty for /killme. Advantage this help will stop players from using Alts to /killme rather than their main. 4. make it so that only alts get a penalty. Advantage: players would be less likely to use an alt if it has to pay 10 gold per dp, or 1 rainbow ingot per dp. 5. if an alt is detected dying more than 5 times in 5 minutes then the main loses 50% of the xp it has accumulated. Advantage: will help stop players from using alts to get around the xp limits. And in issue #3253 AliasAlreadyTaken said: > Some people would try to do /killme right before they impact the ground or be killed by a monster and die anyways, creating a convenient way to get around the xp penalty. Fix for that. Make it so that players can’t do /killme when falling or being targeted by a mob. Flux said: > Disallow home points in the nether +1 There is really no reason for anyone to set home in the nether. -- Edit by Alias: Please use 1. instead of #, that might tag other issues :P

Bla commented

2023-11-28 13:53:39 +00:00

if you restrict it to just /killme that would be exactly what players will do to get around that

True, they might, but why would anyone go to the nether to abuse death ? There is pretty much no advantage. Maybe a bone block once in a while, but that’s it.

player behaviour is not always based on advantages or logic, reminds me of a player that wouldnt leave cities even in full crystal armor cause mimes 😆

There are a few things that might help with alts using /killme

In general not everyone uses alts for it and you can´t reliable detect alts so any idea that only applies to alts is likely to fail.

Disable /killme death messages. Advantage: this will stop potentially spammy players from annoying others.

and remove useful information for staff/bailiffs

(this one I’m not sure about) remove the xp penalty for /killme. Advantage this help will stop players from using Alts to /killme rather than their main.

will be misused to avoid xp loss from "normal" death (falling, nether, voice, etc)

Flux said:

Disallow home points in the nether

+1
There is really no reason for anyone to set home in the nether.

My first nether base was my home for quite a while, pretty sure shanish´s home is also there, upie has a place in nether thats only reachable by alt which has its home in nether and a few other players I know also have/had their home set in nether.

--

Edit by Alias: same as above, in the quoted text

> > if you restrict it to just /killme that would be exactly what players will do to get around that > > True, they might, but why would anyone go to the nether to abuse death ? There is pretty much no advantage. Maybe a bone block once in a while, but that’s it. player behaviour is not always based on advantages or logic, reminds me of a player that wouldnt leave cities even in full crystal armor cause mimes 😆 > There are a few things that might help with alts using /killme In general not everyone uses alts for it and you can´t reliable detect alts so any idea that only applies to alts is likely to fail. > 1. Disable /killme death messages. Advantage: this will stop potentially spammy players from annoying others. and remove useful information for staff/bailiffs > 3. (this one I’m not sure about) remove the xp penalty for /killme. Advantage this help will stop players from using Alts to /killme rather than their main. will be misused to avoid xp loss from "normal" death (falling, nether, voice, etc) > Flux said: > > Disallow home points in the nether > > +1 > There is really no reason for anyone to set home in the nether. My first nether base was my home for quite a while, pretty sure shanish´s home is also there, upie has a place in nether thats only reachable by alt which has its home in nether and a few other players I know also have/had their home set in nether. -- Edit by Alias: same as above, in the quoted text

DragonWrangler commented

2023-11-28 15:10:14 +00:00

(this one I’m not sure about) remove the xp penalty for /killme. Advantage this help will stop players from using Alts to /killme rather than their main.

will be misused to avoid xp loss from "normal" death (falling, nether, voice, etc)

that's why I wrote: "Fix for that. Make it so that players can’t do /killme when falling or being targeted by a mob."

--

Edit by Alias: same as above, in the quoted text

> 3. (this one I’m not sure about) remove the xp penalty for /killme. Advantage this help will stop players from using Alts to /killme rather than their main. >will be misused to avoid xp loss from "normal" death (falling, nether, voice, etc) that's why I wrote: "Fix for that. Make it so that players can’t do /killme when falling or being targeted by a mob." -- Edit by Alias: same as above, in the quoted text

Boot commented

2023-11-28 16:09:11 +00:00

that's why I wrote: "Fix for that. Make it so that players can’t do /killme when falling or being targeted by a mob."

I wonder how someone can type /killme during falling or fight. I only can do /h sometimes if this was the last command before.

> that's why I wrote: "Fix for that. Make it so that players can’t do /killme when falling or being targeted by a mob." I wonder how someone can type /killme during falling or fight. I only can do /h sometimes if this was the last command before.

DragonWrangler commented

2023-11-28 16:20:52 +00:00

Edit by Alias: Please use 1. instead of #, that might tag other issues :P

sorry Alias

>Edit by Alias: Please use 1. instead of #, that might tag other issues :P sorry Alias

Bla commented

2023-11-28 17:02:02 +00:00

that's why I wrote: "Fix for that. Make it so that players can’t do /killme when falling or being targeted by a mob."

I wonder how someone can type /killme during falling or fight. I only can do /h sometimes if this was the last command before.

copy & paste or already typed into chat so you only need to hit enter

> > that's why I wrote: "Fix for that. Make it so that players can’t do /killme when falling or being targeted by a mob." > > I wonder how someone can type /killme during falling or fight. I only can do /h sometimes if this was the last command before. copy & paste or already typed into chat so you only need to hit enter

Bla commented

2023-11-28 17:52:22 +00:00

(this one I’m not sure about) remove the xp penalty for /killme. Advantage this help will stop players from using Alts to /killme rather than their main.

will be misused to avoid xp loss from "normal" death (falling, nether, voice, etc)

that's why I wrote: "Fix for that. Make it so that players can’t do /killme when falling or being targeted by a mob."

--

Edit by Alias: same as above, in the quoted text

yeah sure you wrote that but after 2 more different suggestions and a quote from another issue. So I took those as different points and not related.

I would describe detecting falling in minetest as "shady" atleast😆
detecting if the player is the target of a mob requires changes to all mob api´s in use

if upstream doesnt add support, YL gets a custom solution someone has to maintain and check for conflicts/bugs on every update(multiply per mob api)
if upstream does you can just hope they use the same approach 🙏
depending on how it´s done this can use quite a few server ressources

To me that seems overcomplicated, too much work and wasted server ressources for patching a loophole that was only created to get rid of /killme spam.

> > 3. (this one I’m not sure about) remove the xp penalty for /killme. Advantage this help will stop players from using Alts to /killme rather than their main. > > >will be misused to avoid xp loss from "normal" death (falling, nether, voice, etc) > > that's why I wrote: "Fix for that. Make it so that players can’t do /killme when falling or being targeted by a mob." > > -- > > Edit by Alias: same as above, in the quoted text yeah sure you wrote that but after 2 more different suggestions and a quote from another issue. So I took those as different points and not related. I would describe detecting falling in minetest as "shady" atleast😆 detecting if the player is the target of a mob requires changes to all mob api´s in use - if upstream doesnt add support, YL gets a custom solution someone has to maintain and check for conflicts/bugs on every update(multiply per mob api) - if upstream does you can just hope they use the same approach 🙏 - depending on how it´s done this can use quite a few server ressources To me that seems overcomplicated, too much work and wasted server ressources for patching a loophole that was only created to get rid of /killme spam.

rewired_X commented

2023-11-28 20:57:45 +00:00

imo there should be a "wait time" between each use of /killme - not too short but not lengthy, it wouldn't entirely stop the spam but it would slow it down and hopefully discourage it

flux commented

2023-11-28 22:09:46 +00:00

the evoker would naturally spawn a lot of vex and constantly kill them.

this is exactly the situation that i wanted to discourage with this proposal - if you die in the nether, i don't think you should be able to teleport back immediately and endlessly to try to recover your bones by brute force. the nether is meant to be a very dangerous place, and you may lose your stuff and not recover it. if you want to survive there, you have to be very careful and clever.

stop bones dropping from bone blocks, instead make them craftable. Advantage: this will make players stop dying to get bone blocks.

you currently can get at most 1 bone block from your own bones per hour, which was inspired by this discussion. see #1572 (comment). this has been in place for over a year and players no-longer use /killme repeatedly to get bones for fertilizer.

remove the xp penalty for /killme
Make it so that players can’t do /killme when falling or being targeted by a mob.

let's keep that discussion to #3253

overall, i'm going to break off some of the tangential proposals here into new separate issues

> the evoker would naturally spawn a lot of vex and constantly kill them. this is exactly the situation that i wanted to discourage with this proposal - if you die in the nether, i don't think you should be able to teleport back immediately and endlessly to try to recover your bones by brute force. the nether is meant to be a very dangerous place, and you may lose your stuff and not recover it. if you want to survive there, you have to be very careful and clever. > stop bones dropping from bone blocks, instead make them craftable. Advantage: this will make players stop dying to get bone blocks. you currently can get at most 1 bone block from your own bones per hour, which was inspired by this discussion. see https://gitea.your-land.de/your-land/bugtracker/issues/1572#issuecomment-20922. this has been in place for over a year and players no-longer use `/killme` repeatedly to get bones for fertilizer. > remove the xp penalty for /killme > Make it so that players can’t do /killme when falling or being targeted by a mob. let's keep that discussion to #3253 ------- overall, i'm going to break off some of the tangential proposals here into new separate issues

👍 1

flux referenced this issue

2023-11-28 22:26:06 +00:00

proposal: disable home points in the nether #5566

Jammy commented

2024-03-11 10:05:17 +00:00

Wow.... I don't know why, but sometimes the server make suggestions that makes the game less convenient?
From what I knew most, if not all well-known servers have tpr and /back, or at the very least some ways to go to someone else's position without cost.
NO one wants to make DP or to die. They do it because they wanted to be able to bring someone here without having to walk a few kilo nodes.
I like the game to be challenging, but difficult does not mean challenging. Maybe instead of giving punishments to non-adventurers, let's be positive and reward the people who go on adventures. The current rewards(nether ingots or dragon scales) are not attractive enough.

Wow.... I don't know why, but sometimes the server make suggestions that makes the game less convenient? From what I knew most, if not all well-known servers have tpr and /back, or at the very least some ways to go to someone else's position without cost. NO one wants to make DP or to die. They do it because they wanted to be able to bring someone here without having to walk a few kilo nodes. I like the game to be challenging, but difficult does not mean challenging. Maybe instead of giving punishments to non-adventurers, let's be positive and reward the people who go on adventures. The current rewards(nether ingots or dragon scales) are not attractive enough.

Jammy commented

2024-03-11 10:09:13 +00:00

Disallow home points in the nether

That would not be appropriate. I think we should be able to set home wherever we wanted, it is our home.

> * Disallow home points in the nether That would not be appropriate. I think we should be able to set home wherever we wanted, it is our home.

AliasAlreadyTaken commented

2024-03-11 13:57:08 +00:00

There are plans to allow /home portals, then noone needs to die to have visitors :)

This issue deals with bone block farming and similar.

There are plans to allow /home portals, then noone needs to die to have visitors :) This issue deals with bone block farming and similar.

flux commented

2024-03-11 21:44:32 +00:00

There are plans to allow /home portals, then noone needs to die to have visitors :)

This issue deals with bone block farming and similar.

IMO this issue is mostly about players abusing the death portal mechanic, e.g. brute-forcing hard things like the nether because they can die and teleport back quickly and endlessly.

> There are plans to allow /home portals, then noone needs to die to have visitors :) > > This issue deals with bone block farming and similar. IMO this issue is mostly about players abusing the death portal mechanic, e.g. brute-forcing hard things like the nether because they can die and teleport back quickly and endlessly.

DragonWrangler commented

2024-03-12 11:18:07 +00:00

IMO this issue is mostly about players abusing the death portal mechanic, e.g. brute-forcing hard things like the nether because they can die and teleport back quickly and endlessly

Well that hardly happens anymore.

> IMO this issue is mostly about players abusing the death portal mechanic, e.g. brute-forcing hard things like the nether because they can die and teleport back quickly and endlessly Well that hardly happens anymore.

Jammy commented

2024-03-12 13:50:43 +00:00

This issue deals with bone block farming and similar.

Ummm. Right now the bone blocks are not 100% yielding either.

e.g. brute-forcing hard things like the nether because they can die and teleport back quickly and endlessly.

They still lose experience points

> This issue deals with bone block farming and similar. Ummm. Right now the bone blocks are not 100% yielding either. >e.g. brute-forcing hard things like the nether because they can die and teleport back quickly and endlessly. They still lose experience points

👎 1

AliasAlreadyTaken commented

2024-03-12 14:06:41 +00:00

then noone needs to die to have visitors :)

It's quite sad that our server encourages making friends but is planning to disable a way to meet friends.

It is exactly the other way round! Death portals won't go away, but we plan to add a HOME portal additionally :D Means, you can much more easily invite people, without having to die!

> > then noone needs to die to have visitors :) > > > It's quite sad that our server encourages making friends but is planning to disable a way to meet friends. It is exactly the other way round! Death portals won't go away, but we plan to add a HOME portal additionally :D Means, you can much more easily invite people, without having to die!

👍 2

Jammy commented

2024-03-13 00:24:45 +00:00

Sorry I misunderstand it then :)

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