Azelf reports: Discussion about the use of al ... #4588

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yourland-report · 2023-05-24T10:24:41Z

yourland-report commented

2023-05-24 10:24:41 +00:00

Azelf reports a bug:

Discussion about the use of alts to increase mob spawns

Player position:

{
	z = 1189.0539550781,
	x = 2324.0229492188,
	y = 19
}

Player look:

{
	z = 0.014195791445673,
	x = 0.9918150305748,
	y = -0.1268914937973
}

Player information:

{
	major = 5,
	minor = 7,
	ip_version = 6,
	min_rtt = 0.16200000047684,
	avg_rtt = 0.16599999368191,
	min_jitter = 0,
	max_jitter = 3.2730000019073,
	avg_jitter = 0.00099998712539673,
	connection_uptime = 2854,
	serialization_version = 29,
	patch = 0,
	protocol_version = 41,
	version_string = "5.7.0",
	state = "Active",
	formspec_version = 6,
	lang_code = "",
	max_rtt = 3.4389998912811
}

Player meta:

{
	fields = {
		repellant = "0",
		["stamina:poisoned"] = "no",
		["stamina:exhaustion"] = "131.5",
		xp = "694784",
		played_time = "3130172",
		digged_nodes = "565690",
		placed_nodes = "153088",
		died = "93",
		crafted = "238281",
		["ocean_build.ocean_built"] = "11",
		["unified_inventory:bags"] = "return {\"unified_inventory:bag_large\", \"unified_inventory:bag_large\", \"unified_inventory:bag_large\", \"unified_inventory:bag_large\"}",
		yl_commons_thankyou = "51",
		["ocean_build.last_warning"] = "1.67602e+09",
		jointime = "1659363683",
		bitten = "0",
		arenalib_infobox_arenaID = "0",
		hud_state = "on",
		punch_count = "173005",
		["signslib:pos"] = "(147,-4161,-3070)",
		inflicted_damage = "3711886",
		["3d_armor_inventory"] = "return {\"shields:shield_rainbow 1 168\", \"3d_armor:chestplate_rainbow 1 168\", \"3d_armor:helmet_rainbow 1 168\", \"3d_armor:leggings_rainbow 1 168\", \"3d_armor:boots_crystal 1 16720\", \"\"}",
		yl_commons_player_created = "1659363683",
		yl_commons_player_joined = "1684921045",
		partychat = "party",
		yl_church = "return {[\"last_death_portal\"] = 1684894157, [\"last_death\"] = {[\"z\"] = 4624, [\"x\"] = -912, [\"y\"] = 143}, [\"last_heal\"] = 1678197363}",
		["stamina:level"] = "13"
	}
}

Log identifier


[MOD] yl_report log identifier = vxT1VYOR78Sn1lTyQ6Ap4h5kdKNvhd43

Profiler save:

profile-20230524T102441.json_prettyEE

Status:

# Server: version: 5.6.1-yl | game: Minetest Game | uptime: 1d 15h 14min 45s | max lag: 0.857s | clients (27/52): 9T9, adel_king, AliasAlreadyTaken, Aliza, answer2, Apocralypse, Azelf, Bailiff, Bebwer, BibaBoba, Chache, daydream, Dirac, Flippster, flux, Ganyu, HorusDamocles, iplay, jaconer, laira, MineWorlds, Murmel, Neon_, niceride, Sense, Service, Sysmatic

Teleport command:

/teleport xyz 2324 19 1189

Compass command:

/give_compass Construction vxT1VYOR78Sn1lTyQ6Ap4h5kdKNvhd43 D2691E 2324 19 1189

Azelf reports a bug: > Discussion about the use of alts to increase mob spawns Player position: ``` { z = 1189.0539550781, x = 2324.0229492188, y = 19 } ``` Player look: ``` { z = 0.014195791445673, x = 0.9918150305748, y = -0.1268914937973 } ``` Player information: ``` { major = 5, minor = 7, ip_version = 6, min_rtt = 0.16200000047684, avg_rtt = 0.16599999368191, min_jitter = 0, max_jitter = 3.2730000019073, avg_jitter = 0.00099998712539673, connection_uptime = 2854, serialization_version = 29, patch = 0, protocol_version = 41, version_string = "5.7.0", state = "Active", formspec_version = 6, lang_code = "", max_rtt = 3.4389998912811 } ``` Player meta: ``` { fields = { repellant = "0", ["stamina:poisoned"] = "no", ["stamina:exhaustion"] = "131.5", xp = "694784", played_time = "3130172", digged_nodes = "565690", placed_nodes = "153088", died = "93", crafted = "238281", ["ocean_build.ocean_built"] = "11", ["unified_inventory:bags"] = "return {\"unified_inventory:bag_large\", \"unified_inventory:bag_large\", \"unified_inventory:bag_large\", \"unified_inventory:bag_large\"}", yl_commons_thankyou = "51", ["ocean_build.last_warning"] = "1.67602e+09", jointime = "1659363683", bitten = "0", arenalib_infobox_arenaID = "0", hud_state = "on", punch_count = "173005", ["signslib:pos"] = "(147,-4161,-3070)", inflicted_damage = "3711886", ["3d_armor_inventory"] = "return {\"shields:shield_rainbow 1 168\", \"3d_armor:chestplate_rainbow 1 168\", \"3d_armor:helmet_rainbow 1 168\", \"3d_armor:leggings_rainbow 1 168\", \"3d_armor:boots_crystal 1 16720\", \"\"}", yl_commons_player_created = "1659363683", yl_commons_player_joined = "1684921045", partychat = "party", yl_church = "return {[\"last_death_portal\"] = 1684894157, [\"last_death\"] = {[\"z\"] = 4624, [\"x\"] = -912, [\"y\"] = 143}, [\"last_heal\"] = 1678197363}", ["stamina:level"] = "13" } } ``` Log identifier ``` [MOD] yl_report log identifier = vxT1VYOR78Sn1lTyQ6Ap4h5kdKNvhd43 ``` Profiler save: ``` profile-20230524T102441.json_prettyEE ``` Status: ``` # Server: version: 5.6.1-yl | game: Minetest Game | uptime: 1d 15h 14min 45s | max lag: 0.857s | clients (27/52): 9T9, adel_king, AliasAlreadyTaken, Aliza, answer2, Apocralypse, Azelf, Bailiff, Bebwer, BibaBoba, Chache, daydream, Dirac, Flippster, flux, Ganyu, HorusDamocles, iplay, jaconer, laira, MineWorlds, Murmel, Neon_, niceride, Sense, Service, Sysmatic ``` Teleport command: ``` /teleport xyz 2324 19 1189 ``` Compass command: ``` /give_compass Construction vxT1VYOR78Sn1lTyQ6Ap4h5kdKNvhd43 D2691E 2324 19 1189 ```

AliasAlreadyTaken was assigned by yourland-report

2023-05-24 10:24:41 +00:00

daydream commented

2023-05-24 10:35:11 +00:00

I have wanted an ALT limit of 10 since mid-2022 and I still do want that.

If there's not a real good reason for more than ten, what is the downside to limiting to 10?

Actually nobody needs more than as many character classes we anticipate having in the future... so less than ten in that case but 10 covers a bit of expansion.

I have wanted an ALT limit of 10 since mid-2022 and I still do want that. If there's not a real good reason for more than ten, what is the downside to limiting to 10? Actually nobody needs more than as many character classes we anticipate having in the future... so less than ten in that case but 10 covers a bit of expansion.

JeCel commented

2023-05-24 10:36:07 +00:00

I do see why people would consider this cheating. I mean different people have different kind of electronics they use to play the game. Some of us have not so good ones because we can't afford to buy something better. So it is indeed kind of unfair for someone to enter a game with 5+ Alts to increase the spawnrate on something. Some people can't even afford to be with two clients online at the same time.
If that is considered cheating, I can't say, but it is definitely unfair.

Regarding this I am definitely on the side of daydream to set a limit for alt accounts BUT there also should be a clear guideline regarding those to avoid further (heated) discussions.

I do see why people would consider this cheating. I mean different people have different kind of electronics they use to play the game. Some of us have not so good ones because we can't afford to buy something better. So it is indeed kind of unfair for someone to enter a game with 5+ Alts to increase the spawnrate on something. Some people can't even afford to be with two clients online at the same time. If that is considered cheating, I can't say, but it is definitely unfair. Regarding this I am definitely on the side of daydream to set a limit for alt accounts BUT there also should be a clear guideline regarding those to avoid further (heated) discussions.

niceride commented

2023-05-24 12:46:28 +00:00

Limiting to one connection per human seems pretty reasonable. Anything beyond that needs an explanation:

World anchor "idle" robot (keep machines running, spawn mobs, constant use of one connection to the server in addition to main player account). This should have very specific permission before doing so.

Unrelated activities in different areas of the map. i.e. You're waiting for Miocene Tribe rewards because things are delayed 45 minutes either behind schedule starting or a delay in issue of rewards. Likewise if there's a timed activity or meeting place far away from your other account then Log in to an alt account and do something while you're waiting (or the other way around the alt account is hosting an adventure quest so you want it to be there greeting other players).

Correlated corroboration ; Your main account is exchanging resources directly with an alt account. This includes using alt accounts for reserved death portals to shuttle the main account through, passing inventory items or area protections, area protection and Haven plot (or other city plot) transferrables, and being the current controller of any such shared password account as would be used for a common social guild of several in-game players.

Ban evasion, your main account is in jail and you got no time to wait for the "man".

Can't moderate what you don't classify... the connection count has already been increased as the server's resources are used by more players. As more players use more resources, there needs to be a limit so we can continue to enjoy things like having an alt to keep the machines go brr and the rare mob spawns at a rate more favorable for our time spent playing. All it takes is five players with ten alts each and aint nobody else can log in to the server.

Limiting to one connection per human seems pretty reasonable. Anything beyond that needs an explanation: World anchor "idle" robot (keep machines running, spawn mobs, constant use of one connection to the server in addition to main player account). This should have very specific permission before doing so. Unrelated activities in different areas of the map. i.e. You're waiting for Miocene Tribe rewards because things are delayed 45 minutes either behind schedule starting or a delay in issue of rewards. Likewise if there's a timed activity or meeting place far away from your other account then Log in to an alt account and do something while you're waiting (or the other way around the alt account is hosting an adventure quest so you want it to be there greeting other players). Correlated corroboration ; Your main account is exchanging resources directly with an alt account. This includes using alt accounts for reserved death portals to shuttle the main account through, passing inventory items or area protections, area protection and Haven plot (or other city plot) transferrables, and being the current controller of any such shared password account as would be used for a common social guild of several in-game players. Ban evasion, your main account is in jail and you got no time to wait for the "man". Can't moderate what you don't classify... the connection count has already been increased as the server's resources are used by more players. As more players use more resources, there needs to be a limit so we can continue to enjoy things like having an alt to keep the machines go brr and the rare mob spawns at a rate more favorable for our time spent playing. All it takes is five players with ten alts each and aint nobody else can log in to the server.

👍 3

sixer commented

2023-05-24 14:12:41 +00:00

This is mixing two different things - number of alts in existence and number of alts being online at same time. I think having lot of alts would not constitute a big problem - 1 per class, with some classes possibly havinf variants, like be/not be werewolf. Entries in user database are relatively cheap resource.

Having them online at once should be rather an exception for short time (i.e. testing area protections or similar) than norm. There are only 52 connections for all and this resource is fairly limited.

This is mixing two different things - number of alts in existence and number of alts being online at same time. I think having lot of alts would not constitute a big problem - 1 per class, with some classes possibly havinf variants, like be/not be werewolf. Entries in user database are relatively cheap resource. Having them online at once should be rather an exception for short time (i.e. testing area protections or similar) than norm. There are only 52 connections for all and this resource is fairly limited.

👍 4

Boot commented

2023-05-24 15:29:33 +00:00

In my opinion, you should be allowed to create a maximum of 5 alts and use a maximum of two of them at the same time in the game.

👍 1

flux added the

1. kind/balancing

1. kind/protocol

4. step/discussion

labels 2023-05-24 16:11:03 +00:00

flux commented

2023-05-24 16:38:05 +00:00

i personally think that having alts to get around intentional in-game penalties is cheating, and i try to avoid doing that. see #1572 for some semi-relevant discussion about limits on alts, though that's mostly about creating alts to create death portals and get around the XP loss.

that said, creating alts to increase mob spawn rate seems like a relatively minor infraction, and isn't anywhere near as exploitative as what shanish or i did to get whips. that said, i'm surprised at how quickly BobaCat got a whip - weren't they only using a massive # of alts for a couple of days?

i personally think that having alts to get around intentional in-game penalties is cheating, and i try to avoid doing that. see #1572 for some semi-relevant discussion about limits on alts, though that's mostly about creating alts to create death portals and get around the XP loss. that said, creating alts to increase mob spawn rate seems like a relatively minor infraction, and isn't anywhere near as exploitative as what shanish or i did to get whips. that said, i'm surprised at how *quickly* BobaCat got a whip - weren't they only using a massive # of alts for a couple of days?

👍 1

Sokomine commented

2023-05-24 16:41:38 +00:00

The main problem might be noticing/knowing how many alts a player has and how many are online. Thus, it might be close to impossible to enforce any rules.

I did log in an alt simultaneously once to keep the captured spies alive. Ingame, that was important for my character. But it also vastes a lot of energy for running the client and the server having to supply more clients. I don't think that's a good way to go.

Ideally, the game ought to work in such a way that alts are usually not needed. Lack of teleportation options creates the requirement of some alts, but those at least don't have to be logged in simultaneously. The high XP losses at death may also require alts for Voice fights.

Having diffrent characters for each character class is a diffrent matter. I don't think anyone sees a problem here with them.

I keep the inventories of my main char and my alt(s) seperated (apart from mere testing alts perhaps) - so doing a quest and getting the rewards ought to be fine for the alt. But giving the rewards on to the main account wouldn't be ok.

Alts used to keep machines running or mobs spawning ought to be limited. They waste a lot of ressources. Please try comming up with better game mechanics instead of such things!

The main problem might be noticing/knowing how many alts a player has and how many are online. Thus, it might be close to impossible to enforce any rules. I did log in an alt simultaneously once to keep the captured spies alive. Ingame, that was important for my character. But it also vastes a lot of energy for running the client and the server having to supply more clients. I don't think that's a good way to go. Ideally, the game ought to work in such a way that alts are usually not needed. Lack of teleportation options creates the requirement of some alts, but those at least don't have to be logged in simultaneously. The high XP losses at death may also require alts for Voice fights. Having diffrent characters for each character class is a diffrent matter. I don't think anyone sees a problem here with them. I keep the inventories of my main char and my alt(s) seperated (apart from mere testing alts perhaps) - so doing a quest and getting the rewards ought to be fine for the alt. But giving the rewards on to the main account wouldn't be ok. Alts used to keep machines running or mobs spawning ought to be limited. They waste a lot of ressources. Please try comming up with better game mechanics instead of such things!

👍 1

AliasAlreadyTaken added this to the Alias@work project 2023-05-24 17:20:17 +00:00

Boot commented

2023-05-24 18:40:31 +00:00

Other legitimate reasons for alts are, in my view:

an alt to write /bug, because then its personal data is here;
an alt with the name of your own city or project, so that no one else can secure it (which we already had here), but also as a host for special purposes or to generate plots with it;
an alt to put it at a machine so that you don't waste your limited life and play time with boring routines, also because the construction of a project sometimes requires enormous amounts of material. Here, however, the transition to hoarding and megalomania is fluid.

Other legitimate reasons for alts are, in my view: * an alt to write /bug, because then its personal data is here; * an alt with the name of your own city or project, so that no one else can secure it (which we already had here), but also as a host for special purposes or to generate plots with it; * an alt to put it at a machine so that you don't waste your limited life and play time with boring routines, also because the construction of a project sometimes requires enormous amounts of material. Here, however, the transition to hoarding and megalomania is fluid.

👍 1

sixer commented

2023-05-24 18:56:16 +00:00

In my opinion, you should be allowed to create a maximum of 5 alts and use a maximum of two of them at the same time in the game.

In my opinion there should not be an artificial limit on number of alts (as long as you do not use them to cheat or do other bad things) and you should be logged in two of them only when really needed for short amount of time, not regularly. Most of the time be logged-in only once.

Even as little as single alt may be used for blatant cheating and even 40 alts should not be problem if played by the rules.

IMHO legitimate reasons may be doing different playstyle (e.g. werewolf/non-werewolf, in future different classes) or testing your own protection or other game aspects.

I guess it would be ok to re-log in alt to do some quick task at your base and then continue exploring the wilderness with your other char (otherwise you would need to either wait, or walk several kilometers again).

Well, it might be useful to collect valid (i.e. allowed/tolerated) use-cases for alts and invalid (e.g. disallowed/considered as cheating ...) ones and then based on them invent some exact rules or appriopriate limits.

> In my opinion, you should be allowed to create a maximum of 5 alts and use a maximum of two of them at the same time in the game. In my opinion there should not be an artificial limit on number of alts (as long as you do not use them to cheat or do other bad things) and you should be logged in two of them only when really needed for short amount of time, not regularly. Most of the time be logged-in only once. Even as little as single alt may be used for blatant cheating and even 40 alts should not be problem if played by the rules. IMHO legitimate reasons may be doing different playstyle (e.g. werewolf/non-werewolf, in future different classes) or testing your own protection or other game aspects. I guess it would be ok to re-log in alt to do some quick task at your base and then continue exploring the wilderness with your other char (otherwise you would need to either wait, or walk several kilometers again). Well, it might be useful to collect valid (i.e. allowed/tolerated) use-cases for alts and invalid (e.g. disallowed/considered as cheating ...) ones and then based on them invent some exact rules or appriopriate limits.

Sokomine commented

2023-05-24 20:40:31 +00:00

Boot wrote:

an alt to write /bug, because then its personal data is here;

Definitely a legitimate use. Still, players not knowing about this problem need protection as well. I'd prefer that to be fixed at the root, not requiring alts which one might forget to use.

Boot wrote:

an alt with the name of your own city or project, so that no one else can secure it (which we already had here), but also as a host for special purposes or to generate plots with it;

Definitely. But those are rather few alts in comparison. Still, they have their use and ought to be mentionned. Thanks for remembering them!

Boot wrote:

an alt to put it at a machine so that you don't waste your limited life and play time with boring routines, also because the construction of a project sometimes requires enormous amounts of material. Here, however, the transition to hoarding and megalomania is fluid.

That part I like less as a gameplay mechanic. It exists, but isn't great IMHO. Using an alt for that isn't illegal or wrong, but...it is such a waste of ressources :-( Gameplay ought to be improved so that that is less needed.

sixer wrote:

I guess it would be ok to re-log in alt to do some quick task at your base and then continue exploring the wilderness with your other char (otherwise you would need to either wait, or walk several kilometers again).

Definitely. Alias likely isn't going to change his opinion about teleport and homes sufficiently so that these alts may never become obsolete on YL.

sixer wrote:

Well, it might be useful to collect valid (i.e. allowed/tolerated) use-cases for alts and invalid (e.g. disallowed/considered as cheating ...) ones and then based on them invent some exact rules or appriopriate limits.

Yes, hopefully this thread can achieve that. After all the initial conflict seems to have arisen out of diffrent opinions on what is good use of alts and what isn't.

So far, the only official things I'm aware of that are forbidden regarding alts are circumventing limits:

Alts are forbidden from partaking in votes (1 human behind the screen = 1 vote)
Alts are forbidden from beeing used to protect more land for the main char (having a small spot where the alt has built his home is ok; protecting more areas for your main char isn't)
Alts shall not gather quest rewards that are limited per player. Doing a quest you know already repeatedly is usually easier than the first time. Giving all these rewards to your main char would be cheating. This is a problem if the alt needs the quest rewards for its own builds/purposes. I do sometimes quest with my alt, but I do keep their inventories seperated.

Things that ought to be no problem:

playing as werewolf/normal player
playing diffrent guilds
helping new players while the main char is busy elsewhere
testing/verifying potential bugs
playing from/in untrustworthy defices/environments
using public stuff either char provided for all players (i.e. public anvils)
doing something while your main char is busy elsewhere and can't/doesn't want to reset its only home point
death portals to make places accessible
city alts for maintenance purposes
probably a lot I forgot

Some of these usages of alts have great reasons (werewolves, later on diffrent character classes), are needed for technical reasons (untrustworthy environment, bug testing), or even help the community as a whole (death portals).

The issue wasn't opened for any of those reasons above though. It's about alts beeing created to get more mobs to spawn. Contrary to daydream, I see that critical. And I don't like alts (or mains, for that matter) idling next to machines either. I don't blame players for doing that. The gameplay mechanics favour and promote such behaviour. It is of benefit to the individual player. But to the server as a hole? I have my doubts. But to solve that, gameplay mechanics need changes. Players ought to be able to do regular playing with only one account without too many disadvantages. And idling next to machines only wastes RL energy.

Many of the troubles players have is that balrogs and dragons seem to be too rare. Let's find a mechanic where players can do something to get those mobs to show up when needed - without having to have multiple alts beeing logged in. There can be some grinding, ideally some investment of thought, involved in getting those rarest of things. But please not only mere luck and tons of alts.

Boot wrote: > an alt to write /bug, because then its personal data is here; Definitely a legitimate use. Still, players not knowing about this problem need protection as well. I'd prefer that to be fixed at the root, not requiring alts which one might forget to use. Boot wrote: > an alt with the name of your own city or project, so that no one else can secure it (which we already had here), but also as a host for special purposes or to generate plots with it; Definitely. But those are rather few alts in comparison. Still, they have their use and ought to be mentionned. Thanks for remembering them! Boot wrote: > an alt to put it at a machine so that you don't waste your limited life and play time with boring routines, also because the construction of a project sometimes requires enormous amounts of material. Here, however, the transition to hoarding and megalomania is fluid. That part I like less as a gameplay mechanic. It exists, but isn't great IMHO. Using an alt for that isn't illegal or wrong, but...it is such a waste of ressources :-( Gameplay ought to be improved so that that is less needed. sixer wrote: > I guess it would be ok to re-log in alt to do some quick task at your base and then continue exploring the wilderness with your other char (otherwise you would need to either wait, or walk several kilometers again). Definitely. Alias likely isn't going to change his opinion about teleport and homes sufficiently so that these alts may never become obsolete on YL. sixer wrote: > Well, it might be useful to collect valid (i.e. allowed/tolerated) use-cases for alts and invalid (e.g. disallowed/considered as cheating ...) ones and then based on them invent some exact rules or appriopriate limits. Yes, hopefully this thread can achieve that. After all the initial conflict seems to have arisen out of diffrent opinions on what is good use of alts and what isn't. So far, the only official things I'm aware of that are forbidden regarding alts are circumventing limits: * Alts are forbidden from partaking in votes (1 human behind the screen = 1 vote) * Alts are forbidden from beeing used to protect more land for the main char (having a small spot where the alt has built his home is ok; protecting more areas for your main char isn't) * Alts shall not gather quest rewards that are limited per player. Doing a quest you know already repeatedly is usually easier than the first time. Giving all these rewards to your main char would be cheating. This is a problem if the alt needs the quest rewards for its own builds/purposes. I do sometimes quest with my alt, but I do keep their inventories seperated. Things that ought to be no problem: * playing as werewolf/normal player * playing diffrent guilds * helping new players while the main char is busy elsewhere * testing/verifying potential bugs * playing from/in untrustworthy defices/environments * using public stuff either char provided for all players (i.e. public anvils) * doing something while your main char is busy elsewhere and can't/doesn't want to reset its only home point * death portals to make places accessible * city alts for maintenance purposes * probably a lot I forgot Some of these usages of alts have great reasons (werewolves, later on diffrent character classes), are needed for technical reasons (untrustworthy environment, bug testing), or even help the community as a whole (death portals). The issue wasn't opened for any of those reasons above though. It's about alts beeing created to get more mobs to spawn. Contrary to daydream, I see that critical. And I don't like alts (or mains, for that matter) idling next to machines either. I don't blame players for doing that. The gameplay mechanics favour and promote such behaviour. It is of benefit to the individual player. But to the server as a hole? I have my doubts. But to solve that, gameplay mechanics need changes. Players ought to be able to do regular playing with only *one* account without too many disadvantages. And idling next to machines only wastes RL energy. Many of the troubles players have is that balrogs and dragons seem to be too rare. Let's find a mechanic where players can do something to get those mobs to show up when needed - without having to have multiple alts beeing logged in. There can be some grinding, ideally some investment of thought, involved in getting those rarest of things. But please not only mere luck and tons of alts.

👍 2

niceride referenced this issue

2023-06-16 21:11:17 +00:00

Fast travel between bases #4782

AzelfYL referenced this issue

2023-06-20 12:20:54 +00:00

daydream reports: I really really want a limit t ... #4805

AliasAlreadyTaken commented

2023-07-21 15:45:23 +00:00

"Be excellent to each other and yourself" does not ask what you do. It asks why you do it and whether what you do is excellent to someone else or yourself.

Many of the examples are pretty straight forward. When making an alt, ask yourself: Does it enhance your gaming experience (or that of the others) or does it take away from it, by blocking resources and player slots and adding to lag for selfish reasons?

I'd like to trust everyone's own discretion and judgement on the subject: As soon as you limit someone else's experience, stop doing it. I do not want to decide on hard limits like "no more than 4 accounts at the same time" or similar.

On the topic itself:

Limiting to one connection per human seems pretty reasonable. Anything beyond that needs an explanation

That's a good rule of thumb to go by. You do not need to explain to anyone (unless staff asks you to), but explain to yourself. You can't play with more than one account at a time anyways, unless you grow a second set of arms.

Also true, with the magic update people will want to create alt accounts for themselves. Those are by design not limited in numbers.

Unless this is somehow insufficient or demands more attention, I'd like to close eventually - and reopen should opinions change or new facts emerge: This is NOT an immutable rule given by ancient gods and must be obeyed until eternity. Should we notice a hard limit must be established or whatever change is necessary, we will act upon it in its own time.

"Be excellent to each other and yourself" does not ask what you do. It asks why you do it and whether what you do is excellent to someone else or yourself. Many of the examples are pretty straight forward. When making an alt, ask yourself: Does it enhance your gaming experience (or that of the others) or does it take away from it, by blocking resources and player slots and adding to lag for selfish reasons? I'd like to trust everyone's own discretion and judgement on the subject: As soon as you limit someone else's experience, stop doing it. I do not want to decide on hard limits like "no more than 4 accounts at the same time" or similar. On the topic itself: > Limiting to one connection per human seems pretty reasonable. Anything beyond that needs an explanation That's a good rule of thumb to go by. You do not need to explain to anyone (unless staff asks you to), but explain to yourself. You can't play with more than one account at a time anyways, unless you grow a second set of arms. Also true, with the magic update people will want to create alt accounts for themselves. Those are by design not limited in numbers. Unless this is somehow insufficient or demands more attention, I'd like to close eventually - and reopen should opinions change or new facts emerge: This is NOT an immutable rule given by ancient gods and must be obeyed until eternity. Should we notice a hard limit must be established or whatever change is necessary, we will act upon it in its own time.

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AliasAlreadyTaken added the

1. kind/documentation

label 2023-07-21 15:45:41 +00:00

AliasAlreadyTaken referenced this issue

2023-07-21 16:29:30 +00:00

controversial idea: gain XP over time while logged in #4955

sixer commented

2023-07-21 17:38:35 +00:00

Many of the examples are pretty straight forward. When making an alt, ask yourself: Does it enhance your gaming experience (or that of the others) or does it take away from it, by blocking resources and player slots and adding to lag for selfish reasons?

Well, we should make difference between making alt and connecting with alt.

Having dozen alts would probably not be much of a problem, as long as you connect with at most one at a time.

That's a good rule of thumb to go by. You do not need to explain to anyone (unless staff asks you to), but explain to yourself. You can't play with more than one account at a time anyways, unless you grow a second set of arms.

You can alt-tab between windows. You'll need that when testing something that involves interaction between players although so far I've done it only once on a test server and I never felt the need to be logged with both my main and alt at the same time on the main server ...

In theory, with mobile client and two mobile devices you could control each of the characters by one hand, but that would probably be quite awkward ...

> Many of the examples are pretty straight forward. When making an alt, ask yourself: Does it enhance your gaming experience (or that of the others) or does it take away from it, by blocking resources and player slots and adding to lag for selfish reasons? Well, we should make difference between making alt and connecting with alt. Having dozen alts would probably not be much of a problem, as long as you connect with at most one at a time. > That's a good rule of thumb to go by. You do not need to explain to anyone (unless staff asks you to), but explain to yourself. You can't play with more than one account at a time anyways, unless you grow a second set of arms. You can alt-tab between windows. You'll need that when testing something that involves interaction between players although so far I've done it only once on a test server and I never felt the need to be logged with both my main and alt at the same time on the main server ... In theory, with mobile client and two mobile devices you could control each of the characters by one hand, but that would probably be quite awkward ...

AliasAlreadyTaken commented

2023-12-08 06:38:30 +00:00

If one intends to cheat the system, no rule can keep them from doing so. If one doesn't intend to cheat the system, no rule is necessary.

AliasAlreadyTaken closed this issue

2023-12-08 06:38:30 +00:00

AliasAlreadyTaken added the

5. result/wontfix

label 2023-12-08 06:38:38 +00:00

flux commented

2023-12-09 03:43:13 +00:00

If one intends to cheat the system, no rule can keep them from doing so

this isn't true at all. a rule against cheating is a rule against intentions, and not necessarily programmatic rules. we can't perfectly enforce such intentions, but some things can be detected, and some things can be prevented, and we should probably work on both in some way. there's no perfect automated way of identifying alts, but we could absolutely create a system where server staff could manually identify alts (or suspected alts). i think alts should all share the same XP pool and XP penalties for dying, and similar mechanics.

> If one intends to cheat the system, no rule can keep them from doing so this isn't true at all. a rule against cheating is a rule against intentions, and not necessarily programmatic rules. we can't perfectly enforce such intentions, but some things can be detected, and some things can be prevented, and we should probably work on both in some way. there's no perfect automated way of identifying alts, but we could absolutely create a system where server staff could manually identify alts (or suspected alts). i think alts should all share the same XP pool and XP penalties for dying, and similar mechanics.

AliasAlreadyTaken removed this from the Alias@work project 2024-03-13 12:35:57 +00:00

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