Freebie reports: Potatos seed are sown exclusiv ... #3064

New Issue

yourland-report · 2022-11-16T21:18:15Z

yourland-report commented

2022-11-16 21:18:15 +00:00

Freebie reports a bug:

Potatos seed are sown exclusively by varietal breeders. All Farmers in the world plant whole potatoes. It is also possible to lay parts of potatoes as long as they have a sprout. As we had it, it was perfect. Look here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potato#Seed_potatoes

Player position:

{
	z = 1148.1999511719,
	x = 1992.330078125,
	y = 14.5
}

Player look:

{
	z = 0.97330361604691,
	x = 0.086693838238716,
	y = -0.21251878142357
}

Player information:

{
	ip_version = 6,
	lang_code = "de",
	max_rtt = 4.481999874115,
	min_jitter = 0,
	max_jitter = 4.4580001831055,
	avg_jitter = 0.061999998986721,
	connection_uptime = 773,
	serialization_version = 29,
	patch = 1,
	major = 5,
	minor = 6,
	version_string = "5.6.1",
	formspec_version = 6,
	state = "Active",
	protocol_version = 41,
	avg_rtt = 0.082999996840954,
	min_rtt = 0.01799999922514
}

Player meta:

{
	fields = {
		placed_nodes = "2",
		died = "1",
		arenalib_infobox_arenaID = "0",
		crafted = "5",
		["stamina:level"] = "4",
		["stamina:poisoned"] = "no",
		repellant = "0",
		["stamina:exhaustion"] = "152",
		yl_church = "return {[\"last_death\"] = {[\"y\"] = -12, [\"x\"] = 5984, [\"z\"] = 2968}, [\"last_death_portal\"] = 1649963868}",
		yl_commons_player_created = "1649959597",
		yl_commons_player_joined = "1668632797",
		partychat = "party",
		hud_state = "on",
		jointime = "1649959597",
		bitten = "0",
		["3d_armor_inventory"] = "return {\"3d_armor:helmet_crystal 1 13700\", \"3d_armor:boots_crystal 1 13700\", \"shields:shield_crystal 1 13700\", \"3d_armor:leggings_crystal 1 13700\", \"3d_armor:chestplate_crystal 1 13700\", \"\"}",
		xp = "7",
		played_time = "44723",
		digged_nodes = "1"
	}
}

Log identifier


[MOD] yl_report log identifier = BdXT6rKm4rAsrmASF1io4bKLI4Dg2G6s

Profiler save:

profile-20221116T211815.json_prettyEE

Status:

# Server: version: 5.6.1-yl | game: Minetest Game | uptime: 4h 14min 25s | max lag: 3.5s | clients (27/42): AliasAlreadyTaken, ARboty, Bailiff, BibaBoba, Boot, Coolstorms, Crystal1976, damiemk, dokie, Fishy22, flux, Freebie, Marc7, MartinCZ, Minetest13, Nibsokube, Parrish, Pataco2010, Queenfire234312, rabenkind, rheo, Service, shanish, SonnenBlume, the_chosen_one, viztor, yurt

Teleport command:

/teleport xyz 1992 15 1148

Compass command:

/give_compass Construction BdXT6rKm4rAsrmASF1io4bKLI4Dg2G6s D2691E 1992 15 1148

Freebie reports a bug: > Potatos seed are sown exclusively by varietal breeders. All Farmers in the world plant whole potatoes. It is also possible to lay parts of potatoes as long as they have a sprout. As we had it, it was perfect. Look here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potato#Seed_potatoes Player position: ``` { z = 1148.1999511719, x = 1992.330078125, y = 14.5 } ``` Player look: ``` { z = 0.97330361604691, x = 0.086693838238716, y = -0.21251878142357 } ``` Player information: ``` { ip_version = 6, lang_code = "de", max_rtt = 4.481999874115, min_jitter = 0, max_jitter = 4.4580001831055, avg_jitter = 0.061999998986721, connection_uptime = 773, serialization_version = 29, patch = 1, major = 5, minor = 6, version_string = "5.6.1", formspec_version = 6, state = "Active", protocol_version = 41, avg_rtt = 0.082999996840954, min_rtt = 0.01799999922514 } ``` Player meta: ``` { fields = { placed_nodes = "2", died = "1", arenalib_infobox_arenaID = "0", crafted = "5", ["stamina:level"] = "4", ["stamina:poisoned"] = "no", repellant = "0", ["stamina:exhaustion"] = "152", yl_church = "return {[\"last_death\"] = {[\"y\"] = -12, [\"x\"] = 5984, [\"z\"] = 2968}, [\"last_death_portal\"] = 1649963868}", yl_commons_player_created = "1649959597", yl_commons_player_joined = "1668632797", partychat = "party", hud_state = "on", jointime = "1649959597", bitten = "0", ["3d_armor_inventory"] = "return {\"3d_armor:helmet_crystal 1 13700\", \"3d_armor:boots_crystal 1 13700\", \"shields:shield_crystal 1 13700\", \"3d_armor:leggings_crystal 1 13700\", \"3d_armor:chestplate_crystal 1 13700\", \"\"}", xp = "7", played_time = "44723", digged_nodes = "1" } } ``` Log identifier ``` [MOD] yl_report log identifier = BdXT6rKm4rAsrmASF1io4bKLI4Dg2G6s ``` Profiler save: ``` profile-20221116T211815.json_prettyEE ``` Status: ``` # Server: version: 5.6.1-yl | game: Minetest Game | uptime: 4h 14min 25s | max lag: 3.5s | clients (27/42): AliasAlreadyTaken, ARboty, Bailiff, BibaBoba, Boot, Coolstorms, Crystal1976, damiemk, dokie, Fishy22, flux, Freebie, Marc7, MartinCZ, Minetest13, Nibsokube, Parrish, Pataco2010, Queenfire234312, rabenkind, rheo, Service, shanish, SonnenBlume, the_chosen_one, viztor, yurt ``` Teleport command: ``` /teleport xyz 1992 15 1148 ``` Compass command: ``` /give_compass Construction BdXT6rKm4rAsrmASF1io4bKLI4Dg2G6s D2691E 1992 15 1148 ```

👍 1

AliasAlreadyTaken was assigned by yourland-report

2022-11-16 21:18:15 +00:00

flux added the

1. kind/balancing

4. step/ready to QA test

labels 2022-11-17 00:45:34 +00:00

flux added the

2. prio/controversial

label 2022-11-17 00:49:31 +00:00

flux commented

2022-11-17 00:53:24 +00:00

firstly, none of this is accurate. that was never the point, and will continue to not be. the goal was to reduce complexity and not end up w/ useless or broken nodes.

that said, i did always want to get rid of the seeds too, so that's done now. the seeds that have distinct uses (not just used to replant or make mulch) are still present, the others are gone.

56db2d2359

firstly, none of this is accurate. that was never the point, and will continue to not be. the goal was to reduce complexity and not end up w/ useless or broken nodes. that said, i did always want to get rid of the seeds too, so that's done now. the seeds that have distinct uses (not just used to replant or make mulch) are still present, the others are gone. https://gitea.your-land.de/your-land/yl_commons/commit/56db2d2359fa69bf61ca34676ab023cb2aac9950

Bla commented

2022-11-17 01:44:47 +00:00

What will this break?
so far existing seed -> mulch recipes for

existing mulch automation that expects now killed seeds
players expecting those recipes

What will this break? so far existing seed -> mulch recipes for * existing mulch automation that expects now killed seeds * players expecting those recipes

flux commented

2022-11-17 02:10:11 +00:00

existing mulch automation that expects now killed seeds

anything that can be planted, will be able to become mulch. the same way it is now. excess harvest will still be able to turn into mulch.

players expecting those recipes

... that's not a point that's distinct from the first point?

i do a lot of manual farming. these updates are not happening w/out being invested in that.

> * existing mulch automation that expects now killed seeds anything that can be planted, will be able to become mulch. the same way it is now. excess harvest will still be able to turn into mulch. > * players expecting those recipes ... that's not a point that's distinct from the first point? ------------------------ i do a lot of manual farming. these updates are not happening w/out being invested in that.

Bla commented

2022-11-17 09:57:16 +00:00

existing mulch automation that expects now killed seeds

anything that can be planted, will be able to become mulch. the same way it is now. excess harvest will still be able to turn into mulch.

but it will still break existing mulch automation after the next update kills the seeds that the automation expects to work with.

players expecting those recipes

... that's not a point that's distinct from the first point?

player != automation machine, they might not really "break" but get confused and complain

> > * existing mulch automation that expects now killed seeds > > anything that can be planted, will be able to become mulch. the same way it is now. excess harvest will still be able to turn into mulch. but it will still break existing mulch automation after the next update kills the seeds that the automation expects to work with. > > > * players expecting those recipes > > ... that's not a point that's distinct from the first point? player != automation machine, they might not really "break" but get confused and complain

Boot commented

2022-11-17 20:39:58 +00:00

the goal was to reduce complexity and not end up w/ useless or broken nodes.

None of the old potato was useless or defective.

> the goal was to reduce complexity and not end up w/ useless or broken nodes. None of the old potato was useless or defective.

👍 1

flux commented

2022-11-17 21:53:44 +00:00

None of the old potato was useless or defective.

... did anyone say they were? i was talking about why seeds weren't removed.

> None of the old potato was useless or defective. ... did anyone say they were? i was talking about why seeds weren't removed.

flux commented

2022-11-17 21:55:27 +00:00

but it will still break existing mulch automation after the next update kills the seeds that the automation expects to work with.

let me repeat: all of your machines will be broken in the near term, when pipeworks gets replaced. i don't see "machines breaking" as a reason not to change things.

> but it will still break existing mulch automation after the next update kills the seeds that the automation expects to work with. let me repeat: all of your machines will be broken in the near term, when pipeworks gets replaced. i don't see "machines breaking" as a reason not to change things.

Boot commented

2022-11-17 22:31:49 +00:00

Updates should make things better and not good things worst.

Bla commented

2022-11-17 22:49:23 +00:00

but it will still break existing mulch automation after the next update kills the seeds that the automation expects to work with.

let me repeat: all of your machines will be broken in the near term, when pipeworks gets replaced. i don't see "machines breaking" as a reason not to change things.

let me repeat(with the same attitude): not thought through changes, see #3037

unifying crops

broke existing automation builds

removing seeds

will break existing automation builds

replacing pipeworks

will of course break existing automation builds

I know third time is a charm but I hope you atleast understand that players having to rebuild over and over again wont be happy.
Especially how server updates are done "Server got updated, see milestone" which links to alot of issues on the bugtracker with

short comments, that can be hard to understand for people that dont have a clue how minetest modding works
links to commits, that aren´t public and even if not everyone understands Lua

> > but it will still break existing mulch automation after the next update kills the seeds that the automation expects to work with. > > let me repeat: all of your machines will be broken in the near term, when pipeworks gets replaced. i don't see "machines breaking" as a reason not to change things. let me repeat(with the same attitude): not thought through changes, see #3037 unifying crops - broke existing automation builds removing seeds - will break existing automation builds replacing pipeworks - will of course break existing automation builds I know third time is a charm but I hope you atleast understand that players having to rebuild over and over again wont be happy. Especially how server updates are done "Server got updated, see milestone" which links to alot of issues on the bugtracker with - short comments, that can be hard to understand for people that dont have a clue how minetest modding works - links to commits, that aren´t public and even if not everyone understands Lua

👍 1

JeCel commented

2022-11-17 23:27:42 +00:00

unifying crops

broke existing automation builds

removing seeds

will break existing automation builds

It's not only that this did break existing automation. What bothers me more is that the unifying is just inconsistent.

With the new update the farming mod also got updated which now has asparagus, so now we have two kinds of those, but not two kinds of any other crop.
With the flower cow we can still get both crop types of a lot of the crops (only the plant node not the crop itself), which is just confusing and will be especially for new players. Some of these give the crop and the seed, some just only the seed (cucina vegana onion) and some only the crop. That's just a mess.
And then the thing that wild onions are all now stuck on the fourth crop stage node. That just makes no sense (and no, the problem is not that they don't give the crop. If every wild crop is found on the last stage, I expect that to be the same for onions).
Also it's just annoying to not being able to choose between a seed and a non seed variant anymore (for example tomatoes now need seeds). I never was a fan of the seed mechanic (except for cotton, hemp, wheat and stuff alike) because it just fills up the inventory faster and in general slows all processes a bit down.

> unifying crops > - broke existing automation builds > > removing seeds > - will break existing automation builds > It's not only that this did break existing automation. What bothers me more is that the unifying is just inconsistent. 1. With the new update the farming mod also got updated which now has asparagus, so now we have two kinds of those, but not two kinds of any other crop. 2. With the flower cow we can still get both crop types of a lot of the crops (only the plant node not the crop itself), which is just confusing and will be especially for new players. Some of these give the crop and the seed, some just only the seed (cucina vegana onion) and some only the crop. That's just a mess. 3. And then the thing that wild onions are all now stuck on the fourth crop stage node. That just makes no sense (and no, the problem is not that they don't give the crop. If every wild crop is found on the last stage, I expect that to be the same for onions). 4. Also it's just annoying to not being able to choose between a seed and a non seed variant anymore (for example tomatoes now need seeds). I never was a fan of the seed mechanic (except for cotton, hemp, wheat and stuff alike) because it just fills up the inventory faster and in general slows all processes a bit down.

JeCel commented

2022-11-17 23:34:39 +00:00

And it is also utterly unclear for me why unifying crops got priotized but we still do not have colored chat or an option to shrink the area list down - both things for which bug issues already exist, and which would increase gameplay.

Yes, it has been stated that the area list shrinking will come with the cities update. But why has a feature to come later only because it fits thematically a certain update? We as players don't even know when that city update is going to come, so that is just an unsatisfying answer - I mean, not even the staff seems to know when that update is to come, which is okay, but that still doesn't explain why things get implemented that no one asked for and some important, wanted features just get glossed over.

And it is also utterly unclear for me why unifying crops got priotized but we still do not have colored chat or an option to shrink the area list down - both things for which bug issues already exist, and which would increase gameplay. Yes, it has been stated that the area list shrinking will come with the cities update. But why has a feature to come later only because it fits thematically a certain update? We as players don't even know when that city update is going to come, so that is just an unsatisfying answer - I mean, not even the staff seems to know when that update is to come, which is okay, but that still doesn't explain why things get implemented that no one asked for and some important, wanted features just get glossed over.

flux commented

2022-11-18 04:27:09 +00:00

unifying crops

broke existing automation builds
removing seeds

will break existing automation builds
replacing pipeworks

will of course break existing automation builds

this is not an automation-centric server. i apologize for breaking your automation, but that was planned far before i got involved.

I know third time is a charm but I hope you atleast understand that players having to rebuild over and over again wont be happy.

players that make use of automation will hopefully complain less when it's made clear that automation is fundamentally not in line w/ the goals of this server. i think alias agrees, but i do not want to put words in his mouth.

perhaps the changes i've introduced recently have brought this into the limelight, but i would not have introduced these changes w/out believing they didn't further the aims of the server and the community its trying to establish.

> unifying crops > - broke existing automation builds > removing seeds > - will break existing automation builds > replacing pipeworks > - will of course break existing automation builds this is not an automation-centric server. i apologize for breaking your automation, but that was planned far before i got involved. > I know third time is a charm but I hope you atleast understand that players having to rebuild over and over again wont be happy. players that make use of automation will hopefully complain less when it's made clear that automation is fundamentally not in line w/ the goals of this server. i think alias agrees, but i do not want to put words in his mouth. perhaps the changes i've introduced recently have brought this into the limelight, but i would not have introduced these changes w/out believing they didn't further the aims of the server and the community its trying to establish.

flux commented

2022-11-18 04:34:30 +00:00

Especially how server updates are done "Server got updated, see milestone" which links to a lot of issues on the bugtracker with

short comments, that can be hard to understand for people that don't have a clue how minetest modding works

links to commits, that aren't public and even if not everyone understands Lua

a ton of stuff is constantly changing on this server. if you can't be bothered to contribute to the conversation about the changes until the results are delivered, i'm going to be critical of your criticism.

however, so far as i can tell, only the "administration" and "reports" stuff is gated on having a privileged account; i don't think the "bugtracker" stuff is? if that isn't public, it very much ought to be.

i will certainly accept that most of my comments are directed at people who understand the mod code. if people who don't understand, but still want to get involved, i will do as much as i can to explain the reasons for the decisions that have been made.

> Especially how server updates are done "Server got updated, see milestone" which links to a lot of issues on the bugtracker with > - short comments, that can be hard to understand for people that don't have a clue how minetest modding works > - links to commits, that aren't public and even if not everyone understands Lua a ton of stuff is *constantly* changing on this server. if you can't be bothered to contribute to the conversation about the changes until the results are delivered, i'm going to be critical of your criticism. however, so far as i can tell, only the "administration" and "reports" stuff is gated on having a privileged account; i don't think the "bugtracker" stuff is? if that isn't public, it very much ought to be. i will certainly accept that most of my comments are directed at people who understand the mod code. if people who don't understand, but still want to get involved, i will do as much as i can to explain the reasons for the decisions that have been made.

Bla commented

2022-11-18 08:18:29 +00:00

unifying crops

broke existing automation builds
removing seeds

will break existing automation builds
replacing pipeworks

will of course break existing automation builds
this is not an automation-centric server. i apologize for breaking your automation, but that was planned far before i got involved. 
I know third time is a charm but I hope you atleast understand that players having to rebuild over and over again wont be happy.

players that make use of automation will hopefully complain less when it's made clear that automation is fundamentally not in line w/ the goals of this server. i think alias agrees, but i do not want to put words in his mouth.

perhaps the changes i've introduced recently have brought this into the limelight, but i would not have introduced these changes w/out believing they didn't further the aims of the server and the community its trying to establish.

Feels like you are nitpicking about automation to ignore that the point was players getting unhappy because they have to rebuild again and again.

> > unifying crops > > - broke existing automation builds > > removing seeds > > - will break existing automation builds > > replacing pipeworks > > - will of course break existing automation builds > > this is not an automation-centric server. i apologize for breaking your automation, but that was planned far before i got involved. > > > I know third time is a charm but I hope you atleast understand that players having to rebuild over and over again wont be happy. > > players that make use of automation will hopefully complain less when it's made clear that automation is fundamentally not in line w/ the goals of this server. i think alias agrees, but i do not want to put words in his mouth. > > perhaps the changes i've introduced recently have brought this into the limelight, but i would not have introduced these changes w/out believing they didn't further the aims of the server and the community its trying to establish. > Feels like you are nitpicking about automation to ignore that the point was players getting unhappy because they have to rebuild again and again.

Bla commented

2022-11-18 09:01:24 +00:00

Especially how server updates are done "Server got updated, see milestone" which links to a lot of issues on the bugtracker with

short comments, that can be hard to understand for people that don't have a clue how minetest modding works

links to commits, that aren't public and even if not everyone understands Lua

a ton of stuff is constantly changing on this server. if you can't be bothered to contribute to the conversation about the changes until the results are delivered, i'm going to be critical of your criticism.

You are right I personally comment way less because comments are either ignored, nitpicked(see comment above), you get replies about a different point/topic (like this quote, me talking about how informations are presented about changes after an update and you replying about that people should voice their opinion earlier) or rarely really discussed.

however, so far as i can tell, only the "administration" and "reports" stuff is gated on having a privileged account; i don't think the "bugtracker" stuff is? if that isn't public, it very much ought to be.

missed or ignoring the word "commits"? code repo´s aren´t public, bugtracker is.

> > Especially how server updates are done "Server got updated, see milestone" which links to a lot of issues on the bugtracker with > > - short comments, that can be hard to understand for people that don't have a clue how minetest modding works > > - links to commits, that aren't public and even if not everyone understands Lua > > a ton of stuff is *constantly* changing on this server. if you can't be bothered to contribute to the conversation about the changes until the results are delivered, i'm going to be critical of your criticism. You are right I personally comment way less because comments are either ignored, nitpicked(see comment above), you get replies about a different point/topic (like this quote, me talking about how informations are presented about changes after an update and you replying about that people should voice their opinion earlier) or rarely really discussed. > > however, so far as i can tell, only the "administration" and "reports" stuff is gated on having a privileged account; i don't think the "bugtracker" stuff is? if that isn't public, it very much ought to be. missed or ignoring the word "commits"? code repo´s aren´t public, bugtracker is.

AliasAlreadyTaken commented

2022-11-18 11:15:40 +00:00

This discussion IMO has run into a futile point, at which it is impossible to fully please everyone. Neither nitpicking nor accusations will help.

From a gamedesign perspective it is necessary to not have duplicate crops. It is nice to have a variety of crops, all of which have different properties of where they grow, how they grow, what you can do with them.

This worked on YL as long as farming and cucina vegana had different crops. When they started duplicating each others, we first started adding groups to them, so that recipes that had an ingredient from one mod could now also be made with the ingredient from the other. However this is not sustainable, there's no long term perspective behind it.

Whenever we decide to add or remove one item, mob or any mechanic in favour of another, it is impossible to satisfy everyone.

There are a couple of ways how to proceed, all of those have a chance of satisfying one side or another, all sides or none:

A compromise. Everyone hands in their suggestions, we look at what goes together, we look at where's the conflicts and we try to balance them.
A vote. Everyone works out a set of solutions and ask the community their opinion. In this case people need to hand in real solutions, not only criticize others.
Removal and reinvention. We could remove both farming and cucina vegana and make our own farming mod. This is the most expensive variant, since we then need to maintain a
Alias says. That's IMO the worst way to solve it, but if no other solution works, I must make a decision.

This discussion IMO has run into a futile point, at which it is impossible to fully please everyone. Neither nitpicking nor accusations will help. From a gamedesign perspective it is necessary to not have duplicate crops. It is nice to have a variety of crops, all of which have different properties of where they grow, how they grow, what you can do with them. This worked on YL as long as farming and cucina vegana had different crops. When they started duplicating each others, we first started adding groups to them, so that recipes that had an ingredient from one mod could now also be made with the ingredient from the other. However this is not sustainable, there's no long term perspective behind it. Whenever we decide to add or remove one item, mob or any mechanic in favour of another, it is impossible to satisfy everyone. There are a couple of ways how to proceed, all of those have a chance of satisfying one side or another, all sides or none: - A compromise. Everyone hands in their suggestions, we look at what goes together, we look at where's the conflicts and we try to balance them. - A vote. Everyone works out a set of solutions and ask the community their opinion. In this case people need to hand in real solutions, not only criticize others. - Removal and reinvention. We could remove both farming and cucina vegana and make our own farming mod. This is the most expensive variant, since we then need to maintain a - Alias says. That's IMO the worst way to solve it, but if no other solution works, I must make a decision.

👍 2

AliasAlreadyTaken referenced this issue

2022-11-24 19:07:50 +00:00

1.1.117 #3128

flux referenced this issue

2022-12-22 17:05:53 +00:00

Laylem reports: [farming] I noticed there is a ... #3297

AliasAlreadyTaken added this to the 1.1.117 milestone 2023-01-03 14:40:31 +00:00

AliasAlreadyTaken added the

ugh/QA OK

label 2023-01-18 08:25:06 +00:00

AliasAlreadyTaken commented