Sokomine reports: the mazes are not made for *humans*. please keep in mind that we're human beeings - not bots beeing ... #8441

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yourland-report · 2025-04-20T03:03:36+02:00

yourland-report commented

2025-04-20 03:03:36 +02:00

Sokomine reports a bug:

the mazes are not made for humans. please keep in mind that we're human beeings - not bots beeing trained to run a maze.

Player position:

{
	x = 2044.8000488281,
	y = 22.5,
	z = 1145.2629394531
}

Player look:

{
	x = -0.94923061132431,
	y = 0.059132147580385,
	z = -0.30897372961044
}

Player information:

{
	protocol_version = 46,
	formspec_version = 8,
	minor = 12,
	state = "Active",
	ip_version = 6,
	min_rtt = 0.017000000923872,
	min_jitter = 0,
	major = 5,
	avg_jitter = 0,
	serialization_version = 29,
	patch = 0,
	version_string = "5.12.0-dev-0695541bf-dirty",
	max_jitter = 0.11900000274181,
	connection_uptime = 24944,
	lang_code = "",
	max_rtt = 0.14000000059605,
	avg_rtt = 0.018999999389052
}

Player meta:

{
	fields = {
		["3d_armor_inventory"] = "return {\"\", \"3d_armor:helmet_rainbow 1 728\", \"shields:shield_rainbow 1 728\", \"3d_armor:chestplate_rainbow 1 728\", \"3d_armor:boots_crystal 1 1820\", \"3d_armor:leggings_rainbow 1 728\"}",
		["petz:werewolf_clan_idx"] = "1",
		yl_commons_player_created = "1617905120",
		yl_commons_player_joined = "1745086076",
		snakecount = "14",
		punch_count = "334225",
		jointime = "1617905120",
		inflicted_damage = "7069648",
		["signslib:pos"] = "(27,9,22649)",
		repellant = "0",
		died = "58",
		bitten = "0",
		partychat = "main",
		["unified_inventory:bags"] = "return {\"unified_inventory:bag_large\", \"unified_inventory:bag_large\", \"unified_inventory:bag_large\", \"unified_inventory:bag_large\"}",
		["ethereal:fly_timer"] = "-99",
		played_time = "23457982",
		digged_nodes = "2409943",
		placed_nodes = "432020",
		yl_commons_thankyou = "1066",
		crafted = "908232",
		["stamina:exhaustion"] = "47",
		yl_church = "return {[\"last_heal\"] = 1731267503, [\"last_death_portal\"] = 1738105878, [\"last_death\"] = {[\"y\"] = 2, [\"z\"] = 14336, [\"x\"] = 433}}",
		arenalib_infobox_arenaID = "0",
		["stamina:level"] = "5",
		xp = "2663913",
		["hud_manager:yl_snowball:hud__enabled"] = "n",
		["petz:werewolf"] = "0",
		hud_state = "on",
		["petz:lycanthropy"] = "1",
		["ocean_build.last_warning"] = "1.65032e+09",
		["ocean_build.ocean_built"] = "5"
	}
}

Log identifier


[MOD] yl_report log identifier = eRSMe3rBxbOFrFP3xw7fQP2qwz6iqE4a

Profiler save:

profile-20250420T030336.json_prettyEE

Status:

# Server: version: 5.11.0-yl-lt | game: Minetest Game | uptime: 2d 3h 15min 32s | max lag: 0.282s | clients (28/52): AliasAlreadyTaken, Bailiff, Bertman, bluie, Boot, Boris, daydream, flux, Keya, Laser, Leia_og, nakama-ta, oreo1, papadegianlp, Pelu, pink_mothra, poppyasdan, qwertyuiopo, reg7777, reikoko, rusherflankk, Scarletta, Service, Sokomine, StarBurst, Stimplin_OReilly, tagtraum, Tom_Bombadil

Teleport command:

/teleport xyz 2045 23 1145

Compass command:

/give_compass Construction eRSMe3rBxbOFrFP3xw7fQP2qwz6iqE4a D2691E 2045 23 1145

Sokomine reports a bug: > the mazes are not made for *humans*. please keep in mind that we're human beeings - not bots beeing trained to run a maze. Player position: ``` { x = 2044.8000488281, y = 22.5, z = 1145.2629394531 } ``` Player look: ``` { x = -0.94923061132431, y = 0.059132147580385, z = -0.30897372961044 } ``` Player information: ``` { protocol_version = 46, formspec_version = 8, minor = 12, state = "Active", ip_version = 6, min_rtt = 0.017000000923872, min_jitter = 0, major = 5, avg_jitter = 0, serialization_version = 29, patch = 0, version_string = "5.12.0-dev-0695541bf-dirty", max_jitter = 0.11900000274181, connection_uptime = 24944, lang_code = "", max_rtt = 0.14000000059605, avg_rtt = 0.018999999389052 } ``` Player meta: ``` { fields = { ["3d_armor_inventory"] = "return {\"\", \"3d_armor:helmet_rainbow 1 728\", \"shields:shield_rainbow 1 728\", \"3d_armor:chestplate_rainbow 1 728\", \"3d_armor:boots_crystal 1 1820\", \"3d_armor:leggings_rainbow 1 728\"}", ["petz:werewolf_clan_idx"] = "1", yl_commons_player_created = "1617905120", yl_commons_player_joined = "1745086076", snakecount = "14", punch_count = "334225", jointime = "1617905120", inflicted_damage = "7069648", ["signslib:pos"] = "(27,9,22649)", repellant = "0", died = "58", bitten = "0", partychat = "main", ["unified_inventory:bags"] = "return {\"unified_inventory:bag_large\", \"unified_inventory:bag_large\", \"unified_inventory:bag_large\", \"unified_inventory:bag_large\"}", ["ethereal:fly_timer"] = "-99", played_time = "23457982", digged_nodes = "2409943", placed_nodes = "432020", yl_commons_thankyou = "1066", crafted = "908232", ["stamina:exhaustion"] = "47", yl_church = "return {[\"last_heal\"] = 1731267503, [\"last_death_portal\"] = 1738105878, [\"last_death\"] = {[\"y\"] = 2, [\"z\"] = 14336, [\"x\"] = 433}}", arenalib_infobox_arenaID = "0", ["stamina:level"] = "5", xp = "2663913", ["hud_manager:yl_snowball:hud__enabled"] = "n", ["petz:werewolf"] = "0", hud_state = "on", ["petz:lycanthropy"] = "1", ["ocean_build.last_warning"] = "1.65032e+09", ["ocean_build.ocean_built"] = "5" } } ``` Log identifier ``` [MOD] yl_report log identifier = eRSMe3rBxbOFrFP3xw7fQP2qwz6iqE4a ``` Profiler save: ``` profile-20250420T030336.json_prettyEE ``` Status: ``` # Server: version: 5.11.0-yl-lt | game: Minetest Game | uptime: 2d 3h 15min 32s | max lag: 0.282s | clients (28/52): AliasAlreadyTaken, Bailiff, Bertman, bluie, Boot, Boris, daydream, flux, Keya, Laser, Leia_og, nakama-ta, oreo1, papadegianlp, Pelu, pink_mothra, poppyasdan, qwertyuiopo, reg7777, reikoko, rusherflankk, Scarletta, Service, Sokomine, StarBurst, Stimplin_OReilly, tagtraum, Tom_Bombadil ``` Teleport command: ``` /teleport xyz 2045 23 1145 ``` Compass command: ``` /give_compass Construction eRSMe3rBxbOFrFP3xw7fQP2qwz6iqE4a D2691E 2045 23 1145 ```

AliasAlreadyTaken was assigned by yourland-report

2025-04-20 03:03:36 +02:00

whosit commented

2025-04-20 06:29:00 +02:00

I agree, I think invis maze is a bad design. It requres no skill, just lots of patience. And it drives mad many players who just do not understand how to even navigate it...

Maybe we should provide more ways for people to cooperate in solving it?

Like, allowing changing single block to non-invis block per person... If people use this strategically, they can leave markers for others...

Or, "recording" single person's track while they navigate the maze, then highlighting it in some way after they finish - will be chaotic for people navigating maze first, but become easier and easier for the rest.

Placing a regular grid of randomly pointing arrows on the floor, but allowing anyone to rotate them.

(seems like most of my ideas are about adding more landmarks - that can be confusing by themselves - and letting people cooperate for landmarks to become useful... Are there other ways?)

I agree, I think invis maze is a bad design. It requres no skill, just lots of patience. And it drives mad many players who just do not understand how to even navigate it... Maybe we should provide more ways for people to cooperate in solving it? Like, allowing changing single block to non-invis block per person... If people use this strategically, they can leave markers for others... Or, "recording" single person's track while they navigate the maze, then highlighting it in some way after they finish - will be chaotic for people navigating maze first, but become easier and easier for the rest. Placing a regular grid of randomly pointing arrows on the floor, but allowing anyone to rotate them. (seems like most of my ideas are about adding more landmarks - that can be confusing by themselves - and letting people cooperate for landmarks to become useful... Are there other ways?)

Boot commented

2025-04-20 11:10:30 +02:00

But you don't have to make a drama out of it if you don't manage three out of three mazes twice a day at the first attempt. Then you just do the two easier ones and only get the prizes for them. I don't see a problem in failing sometimes. Most players don't have dragon boots or a balrog whip. Does that mean that it has to be easier to get them?

AliasAlreadyTaken added the

2. prio/controversial

label 2025-04-21 12:31:47 +02:00

tour commented

2025-04-25 22:25:51 +02:00

I can't confirm that the maze is too hard... It takes me ~10-20 min to run through all levels. Given the valuable reward, that's not too much for me.
Changing node_highlighting to halo in the graphic settings makes things much easier.

However, we can see that a lot of players struggle in the maze. Maybe players should be able to request help in exchange for a lower reward...

How could that help look like?

attaching a particlespawner looked quite promising:

local duration = 15 * 60  -- 15 min
local amount = duration * 10  -- 10 particles/s
mark_path = function(player)
	local id = core.add_particlespawner({
    	amount = amount,
        time = duration,
        exptime = duration,
    	texture = "[fill:1x1:#red", -- petz_dreamcatcher_particle.png,
        size = 2,
        glow = 14,
        attached = player,
        playername = player:get_player_name(),
	})
    return id -- for core.remove_particlespawner once the player is out of the maze
end

biggest problem I see would be to remove the particlespawner again... I think a globalstep checking whether the player is still in the maze is the easiest solution. Otherwise we would have to consider /spawn, /h, death and other weird edge-cases

I can't confirm that the maze is too hard... It takes me ~10-20 min to run through all levels. Given the valuable reward, that's not too much for me. Changing `node_highlighting` to `halo` in the graphic settings makes things much easier. However, we can see that a lot of players struggle in the maze. Maybe players should be able to request help in exchange for a lower reward... How could that help look like? attaching a particlespawner looked quite promising: ```lua local duration = 15 * 60 -- 15 min local amount = duration * 10 -- 10 particles/s mark_path = function(player) local id = core.add_particlespawner({ amount = amount, time = duration, exptime = duration, texture = "[fill:1x1:#red", -- petz_dreamcatcher_particle.png, size = 2, glow = 14, attached = player, playername = player:get_player_name(), }) return id -- for core.remove_particlespawner once the player is out of the maze end ``` biggest problem I see would be to remove the particlespawner again... I think a globalstep checking whether the player is still in the maze is the easiest solution. Otherwise we would have to consider /spawn, /h, death and other weird edge-cases

👍 1

AliasAlreadyTaken commented

2025-04-26 02:24:48 +02:00

Maybe players should in general leave footprints where they walk?

Jammy commented

2025-04-30 16:25:55 +02:00

You can drop dirt as you go to leave path.

Sokomine commented

2025-05-03 14:01:25 +02:00

It's probably enough to check the algorithms. There are some invisible mazes that are too hard. They're definitely ok on the glass level (that'd be too easy with a more...forgiving...maze type with alternate routes) and on the wood level - just not on the invisible one.

There is no way for players to know in advance what type (manageable or too difficult) the invisible maze will turn out to be. It is very frustrating to search for so long and not come up with a way through.

whosits' efforts have saved quite a lot of bunnies from ending up in the oven.

I also like whosits' idea of players supporting each other. We have enough players, and working together to solve a problem is enjoyable. Maybe that's nothing for this year's maze, but...maybe could be of intest for a future game?

It's probably enough to check the algorithms. There are some invisible mazes that *are* too hard. They're definitely ok on the glass level (that'd be too easy with a more...forgiving...maze type with alternate routes) and on the wood level - just not on the invisible one. There is no way for players to know in advance what type (manageable or too difficult) the invisible maze will turn out to be. It is very frustrating to search for so long and not come up with a way through. whosits' efforts have saved quite a lot of bunnies from ending up in the oven. I also like whosits' idea of players supporting each other. We have enough players, and working together to solve a problem is enjoyable. Maybe that's nothing for this year's maze, but...maybe could be of intest for a future game?

whosit commented

2025-05-07 01:48:40 +02:00

Regarding coop:
Basic idea would be to allow players to modify the maze somehow - leave some marks.
Marks could be arrows or text.
We can limit the amount of marks single player can leave, so the maze can't be solved for everyone by just single person, but it would require cooperation.

So, give player some amount of "chalk" to leave some marks inside the maze, but not enough to mark the whole maze.

We can also balance that out by making marks "fade" in some way, so they will require refreshing.

There must be other ways to make mazes coop, but this is the most basic idea.

Regarding coop: Basic idea would be to allow players to modify the maze somehow - leave some marks. Marks could be arrows or text. We can limit the amount of marks single player can leave, so the maze can't be solved for everyone by just single person, but it would require cooperation. So, give player some amount of "chalk" to leave some marks inside the maze, but not enough to mark the whole maze. We can also balance that out by making marks "fade" in some way, so they will require refreshing. There must be other ways to make mazes coop, but this is the most basic idea.

whosit commented

2025-05-20 00:35:58 +02:00

previous issue:
#6611

related:
#8540

previous issue: https://gitea.your-land.de/your-land/bugtracker/issues/6611 related: https://gitea.your-land.de/your-land/bugtracker/issues/8540

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