The update discussion seems to be over, but there are ... #7854

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Boot · 2024-12-14T20:16:00+01:00

Boot commented

2024-12-14 20:16:00 +01:00

... still some more questions about. And still no answers here or in the books, you can find since some days in the townhall of Haven. So for Runy and me the most important (for our decision, if or when Rubodyke will take part on this update) are:

Our city has a keep right next to the crown and a citadel not far from it. If the crown falls to the enemy, then not even such structures, perhaps even just manned. Or? I'd rather ask beforehand.

Of course, the update will lead to an arms race. Cities don't want to be conquered, so (according to the current state of knowledge about the possibilities of voice) they build insurmountable bulwarks that resist even boom blocks and ramps. Voice then has no choice but to recruit or train new troops on its part. Where will this end? I only ask this because beautiful cities should not lose their character for this rearmament. Just imagine Maravillosa with lava-flooded very nether basalt walls...

Originally posted by @Boot in #5009 (comment)

The two points can be combined into the decisive one question. What will the balance be?

According to the present state of the capabilities of Voice's troops, one can set a crown and quite easily build a city around it, which will be impossible for him to conquer: not with ramps, not with boom blocks, not with all types of troops known so far.

You can also protect and place your own allies within the city to such an extent that Voice may be able to occupy the crown for a while with a few tricks and surprises, but you will still be in the city yourself and free up this one space around the crown, for example with a tower near the crown and from there you can kill Voice his troops with ranged weapons except for the last creature. That was just one example. But it shows that if a city is perfectly planned and built, only for one purpose: to make an invasion more difficult or to prevent it altogether and to simplify a reconquest, then this is easily possible.

But what about an existing city that already has a character and whose builders love and want to keep exactly this character? Of course, they can widen their trenches, raise the city walls, but how far should that go? Until it only serves this one purpose (see above)? Well, someone can say: participation is voluntary and what do I care about a mayor who complains? Just as he whines about the character of the landscape and the grazers who destroy this character again, see #7463. Then this city will not be able to participate in the update and then it will not get NPCs and the other good things of the update.

It can be quite different, like with the villages, where a little over a year ago it was said: Villages can't participate in the city service and can't get NPCs and now they can. Maybe this will also be the case with the City update? What does that depend on?

It also depends on how persistent Voice will be. Of course, he could take any halfway normally built city, simply by sending his troops more persistently than the defenders have the desire and strength to do so.

But if Voice makes differences between cities, then that's also unfair. Our city should not be treated better than any other city. And under no circumstances do we pay tributes. But we also do not want to subordinate the character of the city only to the struggle. There are still a number of conversions planned, but not on the gigantic scale indicated above.

Just for example the thing with the caterpillars and the hedges, see #7776. Such a hedge is also a very easy way to stop and direct voice troops. In addition, one that can be built perfectly into the landscape. This is important to us. If a caterpillar comes, eats up the hedge and Voice can get through? Also a question of balance. Therefore, this question of balance will affect more or less all ancient cities.

... still some more questions about. And still no answers here or in the books, you can find since some days in the townhall of Haven. So for Runy and me the most important (for our decision, if or when Rubodyke will take part on this update) are: > 3. Our city has a keep right next to the crown and a citadel not far from it. If the crown falls to the enemy, then not even such structures, perhaps even just manned. Or? I'd rather ask beforehand. > 4. Of course, the update will lead to an arms race. Cities don't want to be conquered, so (according to the current state of knowledge about the possibilities of voice) they build insurmountable bulwarks that resist even boom blocks and ramps. Voice then has no choice but to recruit or train new troops on its part. Where will this end? I only ask this because beautiful cities should not lose their character for this rearmament. Just imagine Maravillosa with lava-flooded very nether basalt walls... _Originally posted by @Boot in https://gitea.your-land.de/your-land/bugtracker/issues/5009#issuecomment-60913_ The two points can be combined into the decisive one question. What will the balance be? According to the present state of the capabilities of Voice's troops, one can set a crown and quite easily build a city around it, which will be impossible for him to conquer: not with ramps, not with boom blocks, not with all types of troops known so far. You can also protect and place your own allies within the city to such an extent that Voice may be able to occupy the crown for a while with a few tricks and surprises, but you will still be in the city yourself and free up this one space around the crown, for example with a tower near the crown and from there you can kill Voice his troops with ranged weapons except for the last creature. That was just one example. But it shows that if a city is perfectly planned and built, only for one purpose: to make an invasion more difficult or to prevent it altogether and to simplify a reconquest, then this is easily possible. But what about an existing city that already has a character and whose builders love and want to keep exactly this character? Of course, they can widen their trenches, raise the city walls, but how far should that go? Until it only serves this one purpose (see above)? Well, someone can say: participation is voluntary and what do I care about a mayor who complains? Just as he whines about the character of the landscape and the grazers who destroy this character again, see #7463. Then this city will not be able to participate in the update and then it will not get NPCs and the other good things of the update. It can be quite different, like with the villages, where a little over a year ago it was said: Villages can't participate in the city service and can't get NPCs and now they can. Maybe this will also be the case with the City update? What does that depend on? It also depends on how persistent Voice will be. Of course, he could take any halfway normally built city, simply by sending his troops more persistently than the defenders have the desire and strength to do so. But if Voice makes differences between cities, then that's also unfair. Our city should not be treated better than any other city. And under no circumstances do we pay tributes. But we also do not want to subordinate the character of the city only to the struggle. There are still a number of conversions planned, but not on the gigantic scale indicated above. Just for example the thing with the caterpillars and the hedges, see #7776. Such a hedge is also a very easy way to stop and direct voice troops. In addition, one that can be built perfectly into the landscape. This is important to us. If a caterpillar comes, eats up the hedge and Voice can get through? Also a question of balance. Therefore, this question of balance will affect more or less all ancient cities.

AliasAlreadyTaken was assigned by Boot

2024-12-14 20:16:16 +01:00

rabenkind commented

2024-12-16 20:10:28 +01:00

Boot speaks from my soul here. I would be very reluctant to build all these fortifications and whatnot. Some cities have a nice open character and I want to keep it that way. The best defense are the knights and not any walls or other military installations.

AliasAlreadyTaken commented

2024-12-17 01:55:04 +01:00

Balancing is a very difficult topic. I have no definitive information about that yet.

Balancing can only happen after some playtesting, which requires us to implement the things before.

What we know so far (subject to slight changes in detail, but the spirit will be kept):

Cities cannot be destroyed by Voice, only captured.
Plots are not target and cannot be destroyed either.
Open areas (like public farms) suffer no additional harm.
Strongholds and other defensive structures may take damage where appropriate. A gate may be bashed in, a wall may take damage. The siege troops may try to build a ramp or employ other strategies.
If Voice damages defensive structures, the game takes a snapshot of the area so that in the worst case it can be restored. Preferably breached walls want to be fixed by defenders, the snapshot is intended for technical emergencies and not part of the gameplay.
Voice cannot simply "dig" a wall like a player could. Defensive structures are understood the way they are built, intended or guessed. The more clearly a defensive structure can be read, the better.
Do not use technical tricks or cheats, those are not well received. Military ruses are entirely ok.
As far as we know, Voice does not magically see behind walls, know things just because or unfairly teleport troops.
The status and whether or not a village can obtain city services is still not fleshed out.
If Voice captures a city, then the whole city area is theirs - whatever that may mean.
If Voice captures a city, all city services are suspended, including transport. Airships and sailships refuse to enter a hostile airfield or harbour.
The crown rules specifically state that there may be no obstructions, traps or anything nearby. Having those leads to an inactive crown.
It is up to the city to balance convenience and defense. How would Voice enter a city if it had no gates and was enclosed in 3 layer thick obsidian?
There may be various defensive concepts. A shell-like defense where a city wall is manned, a defense in depth where there are many smaller barricades, a bridge that needs to be crossed or held, strongholds that cover each other and more. For comparison here's the defensive strategies of the planned races of Your Land: Orcs would usually form small groups to a larger pack and prefer counterattacks than defensive action. Sitting around waiting is not theirs. Goblins would either flee their city and take all valuables with them or bunker down and fight partisan-style from sudden manholes, windows or other parts creative and death-defying structures. Humans would raise the alarm, form an army and man walls, towers, cannons and chokepoints. Elves would rain arrows from above in hit-and-run tactics on the enemy or try to duel the enemy officers. Dwarves would employ traps and multiple layers of defense.
There are no information towards the "persistence" of Voice. So far we can only guess their plans or goals - unless somehow revealed or inferred. As far as we can tell Voice's resources are somewhat limited, sometimes more, sometimes less.
As far as we know Voice does make differences between cities. I have no other explanation as to why Maravillosa didn't even get a scouting party yet. Or it did and we did not notice, no clue. All while Haven and Gond En Galad are high up the list. Also there seems to be seasonal(?) interest, when Voice attacks one city over and over and then somehow ceases the attacks?
A city may remain a legacy city - it can still be attacked and conquered, but doesn't lose XP or eco (because it has none). Legacy city means pretty much "what you have now is what you keep, no new mechanics are added"
It would be a shame if an otherwise "open field defense" city like Lamorra or Rubodyke would suddenly have to build huge walls all around their territory. Those cities will find other ways to defend against Voice. With the 1.4 update cities can take up relationships with neighbouring clans and try to call for their aid.

Balancing is a very difficult topic. I have no definitive information about that yet. Balancing can only happen after some playtesting, which requires us to implement the things before. What we know so far (subject to slight changes in detail, but the spirit will be kept): 1. Cities cannot be destroyed by Voice, only captured. 2. Plots are not target and cannot be destroyed either. 3. Open areas (like public farms) suffer no additional harm. 4. Strongholds and other defensive structures may take damage where appropriate. A gate may be bashed in, a wall may take damage. The siege troops may try to build a ramp or employ other strategies. 5. If Voice damages defensive structures, the game takes a snapshot of the area so that in the worst case it can be restored. Preferably breached walls want to be fixed by defenders, the snapshot is intended for technical emergencies and not part of the gameplay. 6. Voice cannot simply "dig" a wall like a player could. Defensive structures are understood the way they are built, intended or guessed. The more clearly a defensive structure can be read, the better. 7. Do not use technical tricks or cheats, those are not well received. Military ruses are entirely ok. 8. As far as we know, Voice does not magically see behind walls, know things just because or unfairly teleport troops. 9. The status and whether or not a village can obtain city services is still not fleshed out. 10. If Voice captures a city, then the whole city area is theirs - whatever that may mean. 11. If Voice captures a city, all city services are suspended, including transport. Airships and sailships refuse to enter a hostile airfield or harbour. 12. The crown rules specifically state that there may be no obstructions, traps or anything nearby. Having those leads to an inactive crown. 13. It is up to the city to balance convenience and defense. How would Voice enter a city if it had no gates and was enclosed in 3 layer thick obsidian? 14. There may be various defensive concepts. A shell-like defense where a city wall is manned, a defense in depth where there are many smaller barricades, a bridge that needs to be crossed or held, strongholds that cover each other and more. For comparison here's the defensive strategies of the planned races of Your Land: Orcs would usually form small groups to a larger pack and prefer counterattacks than defensive action. Sitting around waiting is not theirs. Goblins would either flee their city and take all valuables with them or bunker down and fight partisan-style from sudden manholes, windows or other parts creative and death-defying structures. Humans would raise the alarm, form an army and man walls, towers, cannons and chokepoints. Elves would rain arrows from above in hit-and-run tactics on the enemy or try to duel the enemy officers. Dwarves would employ traps and multiple layers of defense. 15. There are no information towards the "persistence" of Voice. So far we can only guess their plans or goals - unless somehow revealed or inferred. As far as we can tell Voice's resources are somewhat limited, sometimes more, sometimes less. 16. As far as we know Voice does make differences between cities. I have no other explanation as to why Maravillosa didn't even get a scouting party yet. Or it did and we did not notice, no clue. All while Haven and Gond En Galad are high up the list. Also there seems to be seasonal(?) interest, when Voice attacks one city over and over and then somehow ceases the attacks? 17. A city may remain a legacy city - it can still be attacked and conquered, but doesn't lose XP or eco (because it has none). Legacy city means pretty much "what you have now is what you keep, no new mechanics are added" 18. It would be a shame if an otherwise "open field defense" city like Lamorra or Rubodyke would suddenly have to build huge walls all around their territory. Those cities will find other ways to defend against Voice. With the 1.4 update cities can take up relationships with neighbouring clans and try to call for their aid.

AliasAlreadyTaken added the

1. kind/enhancement

1. kind/documentation

2. prio/critical

1. kind/breaking

1. kind/protocol

labels 2024-12-17 01:55:47 +01:00

AliasAlreadyTaken added this to the Alias@work project 2024-12-17 01:55:50 +01:00

AliasAlreadyTaken added this to the 1.2 Cities and Invasions milestone 2024-12-17 01:55:54 +01:00

sixer commented

2024-12-17 02:23:14 +01:00

The new mechanics will face many mayors with difficult options - either build a nice city, or build "crazy" fortifications (layers of huge wall interleaved with deep moats filled with spikes or lava) that will help defending, but will bring inconvenience to normal city function (huge city with only 1 or 2 gates) ... in addition to being ugly and ruining the landscape.

AliasAlreadyTaken commented

2024-12-17 12:38:44 +01:00

Pretty much the opposite is intended? Where exactly do you read that?

Boot commented

2024-12-17 20:28:51 +01:00

Balancing is a very difficult topic. I have no definitive information about that yet.

Thanks for the detailed answer. I also see it this way: Balance is necessary (in every game) and difficult at the same time. In the end, you can only find out the balance when all possibilities are built in and then readjust them, as has been done all the time in the past. Every small change in the game will always have an effect on this balance.

The difficulty for mayors now is to make long-term urban planning with this information. Runy and I prefer to build a city from the inside out and let it grow halfway organically and credibly. As the external threat increases, the efforts of the inhabitants to arm their city against it will naturally also increase.

I don't think Lamorra will participate in the update, because it doesn't show any defenses at all so far and is unfortunately one of the less active cities at the moment. If the mayor decides to do so, Lamorra would actually be a fairly open place.

Which city, or which defense concept, is at the other end of the rank, remains to be seen. The diversity of the cities is sure to bring exciting experiences and a lot of exchange about the possibilities of the players. In the end, you will really only see it in an emergency and as rabenkind wrote: the real difference will be made by the brave fighters.

> Balancing is a very difficult topic. I have no definitive information about that yet. Thanks for the detailed answer. I also see it this way: Balance is necessary (in every game) and difficult at the same time. In the end, you can only find out the balance when all possibilities are built in and then readjust them, as has been done all the time in the past. Every small change in the game will always have an effect on this balance. The difficulty for mayors now is to make long-term urban planning with this information. Runy and I prefer to build a city from the inside out and let it grow halfway organically and credibly. As the external threat increases, the efforts of the inhabitants to arm their city against it will naturally also increase. I don't think Lamorra will participate in the update, because it doesn't show any defenses at all so far and is unfortunately one of the less active cities at the moment. If the mayor decides to do so, Lamorra would actually be a fairly open place. Which city, or which defense concept, is at the other end of the rank, remains to be seen. The diversity of the cities is sure to bring exciting experiences and a lot of exchange about the possibilities of the players. In the end, you will really only see it in an emergency and as rabenkind wrote: the real difference will be made by the brave fighters.

AliasAlreadyTaken commented

2024-12-17 20:52:45 +01:00

The idea is that every reasonable city concept should in some form be defendable, challengable and potentially winnable for both sides.

Boot commented

2025-02-01 10:36:19 +01:00

The idea is that every reasonable city concept should in some form be defendable, challengable and potentially winnable for both sides.

Sounds logical and fair. The question, however, is whether and how Voice will succeed in thinking its way into the respective defense concepts of every single different city and finding its own counter-solution for a successful attack for each individual measure of the mayors. Maybe Voice is not an entity after all, but a plurality?

> The idea is that every reasonable city concept should in some form be defendable, challengable and potentially winnable for both sides. Sounds logical and fair. The question, however, is whether and how Voice will succeed in thinking its way into the respective defense concepts of every single different city and finding its own counter-solution for a successful attack for each individual measure of the mayors. Maybe Voice is not an entity after all, but a plurality?

sixer commented

2025-02-06 09:53:09 +01:00

In "realistic" settings, like with medieval castles, defenders created various traps (pouring hot oil on attackers) and obstacles (walls, pits, moats, ...), but were quite constrained by resources (sure, 10 m thick wall is better than 3m, but we cannot afford so much stone). In game the rrdources are much less constrained, allowing to buil "unrealistically good" defenses.

Sokomine commented

2025-03-21 21:06:44 +01:00

AliasAlreadyTaken wrote:

If Voice damages defensive structures, the game takes a snapshot of the area so that in the worst case it can be restored. Preferably breached walls want to be fixed by defenders, the snapshot is intended for technical emergencies and not part of the gameplay.

That may already be a bit problematic. Sure, a wall can be fixed, a tower rebuilt. But if it's a more complex defense structure, restoring it right might be a lot of work. Maybe we ought to go here for a temporal fix - players fix the hole with what they have at hand - and the "city" then later restores the original. Else it'd be griefing. To my knowledge that happened this way in the past with breached/destroyed structures. Some structures are just more complex than a simple wall.

The crown rules specifically state that there may be no obstructions, traps or anything nearby. Having those leads to an inactive crown.

Might be very difficult to check automaticly. There are gates...

It is up to the city to balance convenience and defense. How would Voice enter a city if it had no gates and was enclosed in 3 layer thick obsidian?

Obsidian didn't proof any more TNT resistant than other materials. And a city enclosed in locked chests would look so odd we'd all be running away screaming, thus scaring Voice, and nobody wishing to be there at all.

There may be various defensive concepts.

Sure. They just don't work so well on the technical side. Voice has to do RPG in order to make the intention of those concepts become effective. I'm sure he can!

As far as we know Voice does make differences between cities. I have no other explanation as to why Maravillosa didn't even get a scouting party yet. Or it did and we did not notice, no clue. All while Haven and Gond En Galad are high up the list. Also there seems to be seasonal(?) interest, when Voice attacks one city over and over and then somehow ceases the attacks?

Perhaps he did come personally and took those free massages offered in our spa area...who knows! A more realistic reason might be that it's in effect a small fishing town (ok, growing) with a focus on healing, seafaring, and not very high walls. Some private bases might be higher and have higher walls. Not enough of a challenge to conquer. Those things behind those huge walls have to be more intresting! I mean...if you build such high walls...Perhaps "challenge" is also the reason why there's intrest in Tenebris and Rubodyke. They have very good defenses, and that's of intrest to the strategist Voice is - even if their walls don't cry "conquer me!" like those of Haven.

It would be a shame if an otherwise "open field defense" city like Lamorra or Rubodyke would suddenly have to build huge walls all around their territory. Those cities will find other ways to defend against Voice. With the 1.4 update cities can take up relationships with neighbouring clans and try to call for their aid.

Perhaps in the case of Lamorra a Landwehr/dyke out of hedges might fit. In a way, open plains might be a lot easier fighting grounds for us against the Voice than an area with dense plants where two out of three hits with the sword hit leaves and plants instead of the enemy. But I don't see that happening in Lamorra either. Hope someone comes back and continues building on the city!

Rubodyke seems to be doing very well with defenses that happen to look very good while beeing efficient at the same time. I don't want that city or any other to be forced to look uglier just to be able to defend itself.

sixer wrote:

The new mechanics will face many mayors with difficult options - either build a nice city, or build "crazy" fortifications (layers of huge wall interleaved with deep moats filled with spikes or lava) that will help defending, but will bring inconvenience to normal city function (huge city with only 1 or 2 gates) ... in addition to being ugly and ruining the landscape.

AliasAlreadyTaken replied:

Pretty much the opposite is intended? Where exactly do you read that?

Intended - yes. Sadly a lot of mayors read it as "we need to build effective defense structures". Unreasonably high ugly walls are a possible defense against stacking Scouts. Against Boomblocks, other defenses might be necessary. From the technical point of view (and that seems to be the way many players see it) that leads to ugly structures. IMHO ugly structures (or rather: large things and/or large modifications of the landscape) are "sensed" by Voices' troops somehow and make him come and look. But that's only my theory and does not seem to be shared by too many. I still remember our tour around old/abandonned cities. They all had those huge ugly walls. And perhaps some flattened landscape. And not much eslse.

sixer wrote:

In "realistic" settings, like with medieval castles, defenders created various traps (pouring hot oil on attackers) and obstacles (walls, pits, moats, ...), but were quite constrained by resources (sure, 10 m thick wall is better than 3m, but we cannot afford so much stone). In game the rrdources are much less constrained, allowing to buil "unrealistically good" defenses.

Oh yes. I try to follow that a bit in Maravillosa. Sure, I do have enough in my chests to build expensive and huge things, but - it's the citizens that build them. And they and the ressources need to be paid. We're still struggling to pay for the huge church and the town hall! And the new harbour, and new ships beeing built. That's all very expensive. Luckily, tourists seeking healing bring in money. Wine export also runs well. We plan to have a bank soon in order to improve financing ship building.

But let's step back from RPG for a moment.

I'm sure we all agree that we don't want ugly defenses. And most of our mayors don't want to be forced to build something ugly. Neither does Alias seem to want such a thing.

On the other hand, Voice cannot always loose. He has to sometimes be able to win - or at least barely win - in order to remain a believable threat.

I'd say that Voice ought to be able to take any city, no matter how well defended. Just not at every time and not forever. It ought to not depend on how well the city is defended - it ought to depend on there beeing enough willing defenders that are capable to take the city back from Voice. And who have the time, will enjoy the fight, and not miss something important in RL for that. That's social balancing - not strategic one. It may be way more difficult. But it's necessary in order for us all to enjoy the game.

Such a Voice occupation would then end with players working together to free the city and celebrating victory afterwards. This only works with enough players. If the assumption that there would be enough turns out to be false, and a mayor desperately asks for help but there simply are less people than whoever Voice steers anticipated - then there has to be another resolution. Perhaps an attack by another faction on Voice elsewhere, forcing him to move his troops.

This still leaves the problem of what to do when there's an attack on a city and the mayor has other plans and would prefer to build his city rather than fight. This is definitely legitimate. And opting out of the cities update may not be seen as a solution here either. Perhaps mayors might be happy that far more people than usual come to visit their cities and take a look around? That's not bad at all. If those players ask for improvements regarding defense aspects, those will be judged by the mayor. Some ideas and wishes may actually make the whole thing more realistic and look better. Others might be refused due to asthetics beating defensability.

There's still players who don't love to fight at all. Maybe for them a builders' guild might help? With builders' flight beeing an always available ability, and the player not beeing able to be attacked by Voices' forces (tree monsters, mimes and hostile animals might still attack) - and not beeing able to attack either. They'd probably need to promise not to spy on Voices' forces. In turn, Voice might not mind at all if someone works for free on the city he has just conquered and considers to be his...

Defenses of course shouldn't be usesless. Far from that! But their strength might just reflect how easy or difficult it will be for Voice to conquer the city. He definitely needs to comment about this! Some cities might be highly intrested in that. Maravillosa prefers to capture, rehabilitate and then free hostile forces.

No conquest ought to be permanent. If the players truely can't free the city, intervention is needed. This cannot be automated anyway.

No destruction/changes on the buildings ought to be permanent. Players can fix in a hurry, but then a backup ought to be available after the city has been taken back.

No NPC shall be lost permanently. If they go away for a while, they need to come back once the city has been taken back.

Conquests of cities through the Voice ought to be events. They need to take place when it's the right time. If it turns out it wasn't the right time, a reason needs to be found why Voice pulls back.

AliasAlreadyTaken wrote: > 5. If Voice damages defensive structures, the game takes a snapshot of the area so that in the worst case it can be restored. Preferably breached walls want to be fixed by defenders, the snapshot is intended for technical emergencies and not part of the gameplay. That may already be a bit problematic. Sure, a wall can be fixed, a tower rebuilt. But if it's a more complex defense structure, restoring it right might be a lot of work. Maybe we ought to go here for a temporal fix - players fix the hole with what they have at hand - and the "city" then later restores the original. Else it'd be griefing. To my knowledge that happened this way in the past with breached/destroyed structures. Some structures are just more complex than a simple wall. > 12. The crown rules specifically state that there may be no obstructions, traps or anything nearby. Having those leads to an inactive crown. Might be very difficult to check automaticly. There are gates... > 13. It is up to the city to balance convenience and defense. How would Voice enter a city if it had no gates and was enclosed in 3 layer thick obsidian? Obsidian didn't proof any more TNT resistant than other materials. And a city enclosed in locked chests would look so odd we'd all be running away screaming, thus scaring Voice, and nobody wishing to be there at all. > 14. There may be various defensive concepts. Sure. They just don't work so well on the technical side. Voice has to do RPG in order to make the intention of those concepts become effective. I'm sure he can! > 16. As far as we know Voice does make differences between cities. I have no other explanation as to why Maravillosa didn't even get a scouting party yet. Or it did and we did not notice, no clue. All while Haven and Gond En Galad are high up the list. Also there seems to be seasonal(?) interest, when Voice attacks one city over and over and then somehow ceases the attacks? Perhaps he *did* come personally and took those free massages offered in our spa area...who knows! A more realistic reason might be that it's in effect a small fishing town (ok, growing) with a focus on healing, seafaring, and not very high walls. Some private bases might be higher and have higher walls. Not enough of a challenge to conquer. Those things behind those huge walls *have to* be more intresting! I mean...if you build such high walls...Perhaps "challenge" is also the reason why there's intrest in Tenebris and Rubodyke. They have very good defenses, and that's of intrest to the strategist Voice is - even if their walls don't cry "conquer me!" like those of Haven. > 18. It would be a shame if an otherwise "open field defense" city like Lamorra or Rubodyke would suddenly have to build huge walls all around their territory. Those cities will find other ways to defend against Voice. With the 1.4 update cities can take up relationships with neighbouring clans and try to call for their aid. Perhaps in the case of Lamorra a Landwehr/dyke out of hedges might fit. In a way, open plains might be a lot easier fighting grounds for *us* against the Voice than an area with dense plants where two out of three hits with the sword hit leaves and plants instead of the enemy. But I don't see that happening in Lamorra either. Hope someone comes back and continues building on the city! Rubodyke seems to be doing very well with defenses that happen to look very good while beeing efficient at the same time. I don't want that city or any other to be forced to look uglier just to be able to defend itself. sixer wrote: > The new mechanics will face many mayors with difficult options - either build a nice city, or build "crazy" fortifications (layers of huge wall interleaved with deep moats filled with spikes or lava) that will help defending, but will bring inconvenience to normal city function (huge city with only 1 or 2 gates) ... in addition to being ugly and ruining the landscape. AliasAlreadyTaken replied: > Pretty much the opposite is intended? Where exactly do you read that? Intended - yes. Sadly a lot of mayors read it as "we need to build *effective* defense structures". Unreasonably high ugly walls are a possible defense against stacking Scouts. Against Boomblocks, other defenses might be necessary. From the technical point of view (and that seems to be the way many players see it) that leads to ugly structures. IMHO ugly structures (or rather: large things and/or large modifications of the landscape) are "sensed" by Voices' troops somehow and make him come and look. But that's only my theory and does not seem to be shared by too many. I still remember our tour around old/abandonned cities. They all had those huge ugly walls. And perhaps some flattened landscape. And not much eslse. sixer wrote: > In "realistic" settings, like with medieval castles, defenders created various traps (pouring hot oil on attackers) and obstacles (walls, pits, moats, ...), but were quite constrained by resources (sure, 10 m thick wall is better than 3m, but we cannot afford so much stone). In game the rrdources are much less constrained, allowing to buil "unrealistically good" defenses. Oh yes. I try to follow that a bit in Maravillosa. Sure, *I* do have enough in my chests to build expensive and huge things, but - it's the citizens that build them. And they and the ressources need to be paid. We're still struggling to pay for the huge church and the town hall! And the new harbour, and new ships beeing built. That's all very expensive. Luckily, tourists seeking healing bring in money. Wine export also runs well. We plan to have a bank soon in order to improve financing ship building. But let's step back from RPG for a moment. I'm sure we all agree that we don't want ugly defenses. And most of our mayors don't want to be forced to build something ugly. Neither does Alias seem to want such a thing. On the other hand, Voice cannot always loose. He has to sometimes be able to win - or at least barely win - in order to remain a believable threat. I'd say that Voice ought to be able to take *any* city, no matter how well defended. Just not at every time and not forever. It ought to not depend on how well the city is defended - it ought to depend on there beeing enough willing defenders that are capable to take the city back from Voice. And who have the time, will enjoy the fight, and not miss something important in RL for that. That's social balancing - not strategic one. It may be way more difficult. But it's necessary in order for us all to enjoy the game. Such a Voice occupation would then end with players working together to free the city and celebrating victory afterwards. This only works with enough players. If the assumption that there would be enough turns out to be false, and a mayor desperately asks for help but there simply are less people than whoever Voice steers anticipated - then there has to be another resolution. Perhaps an attack by another faction on Voice elsewhere, forcing him to move his troops. This still leaves the problem of what to do when there's an attack on a city and the mayor has other plans and would prefer to build his city rather than fight. This is definitely legitimate. And opting out of the cities update may not be seen as a solution here either. Perhaps mayors might be happy that far more people than usual come to visit their cities and take a look around? That's not bad at all. If those players ask for improvements regarding defense aspects, those will be judged by the mayor. Some ideas and wishes may actually make the whole thing more realistic and look better. Others might be refused due to asthetics beating defensability. There's still players who don't love to fight at all. Maybe for them a builders' guild might help? With builders' flight beeing an always available ability, and the player not beeing able to be attacked by Voices' forces (tree monsters, mimes and hostile animals might still attack) - and not beeing able to attack either. They'd probably need to promise not to spy on Voices' forces. In turn, Voice might not mind at all if someone works for free on the city he has just conquered and considers to be his... Defenses of course shouldn't be usesless. Far from that! But their strength might just reflect how easy or difficult it will be for Voice to conquer the city. He definitely needs to comment about this! Some cities might be highly intrested in that. Maravillosa prefers to capture, rehabilitate and then free hostile forces. No conquest ought to be permanent. If the players truely can't free the city, intervention is needed. This cannot be automated anyway. No destruction/changes on the buildings ought to be permanent. Players can fix in a hurry, but then a backup ought to be available after the city has been taken back. No NPC shall be lost permanently. If they go away for a while, they need to come back once the city has been taken back. Conquests of cities through the Voice ought to be events. They need to take place when it's the right time. If it turns out it wasn't the right time, a reason needs to be found why Voice pulls back.

AliasAlreadyTaken commented

2025-03-21 21:44:26 +01:00

So far, I'm not reading anything in Sokomine's text where I would say "nope". Some plans are different than expected, but what I read here is "balance" and that's the plan.

AliasAlreadyTaken removed the

2. prio/critical

label 2025-04-26 02:28:37 +02:00

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