tweak dragon spawn rates #6665

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flux · 2024-04-17T19:28:09Z

flux commented

2024-04-17 19:28:09 +00:00

Originally posted by @AliasAlreadyTaken in #6663 (comment)

Still, there is some "inbalance" in dragons.

Originally posted by @AliasAlreadyTaken in https://gitea.your-land.de/your-land/bugtracker/issues/6663#issuecomment-80061 Still, there is some "inbalance" in dragons.

flux referenced this issue

2024-04-17 19:28:44 +00:00

Parrish reports: I just killed a dragon in the ... #6663

rewired_X commented

2024-04-17 19:44:45 +00:00

define "imbalance"

AliasAlreadyTaken commented

2024-04-17 21:28:17 +00:00

Drop rates, spawn rates and power level.

AzelfYL commented

2024-04-17 23:51:45 +00:00

Personally I don't think dragons need any balancing (other than the fact they should always drop at least one scale upon death no matter what), instead I think it is instead what you make out of them that needs balancing

AliasAlreadyTaken added the

4. step/discussion

2. prio/controversial

1. kind/balancing

labels 2024-04-18 01:35:10 +00:00

flux commented

2024-04-18 03:18:08 +00:00

they should always drop at least one scale upon death no matter what

they are already coded to drop either 1 or 2 scales on every death, but those drops might get destroyed through various means. i'm not aware of any way for drops to fail entirely, and that's something i've had attention on.

apparently, in Parrish's case recently, the drops got grabbed by a vacuum tube. a solution to that confusion might be some form of logging.

we also learned that drops can be destroyed by explosions when we were debugging balrog whip drops - at the least, we should add the same protections we a to dragon scales.

> they should always drop at least one scale upon death no matter what they are already coded to drop either 1 or 2 scales on every death, but those drops might get destroyed through various means. i'm not aware of any way for drops to fail entirely, and that's something i've had attention on. apparently, in Parrish's case recently, the drops got grabbed by a vacuum tube. a solution to that confusion might be some form of logging. we also learned that drops can be destroyed by explosions when we were debugging balrog whip drops - at the least, we should add the same protections we a to dragon scales.

flux added the

3. source/integration

2. prio/elevated

labels 2024-04-18 03:18:39 +00:00

AliasAlreadyTaken commented

2024-04-18 03:50:19 +00:00

Under what circumstances is it desirable that dropped items get destroyed by explosions or similar? Is that a performance consideration?

Wouldn't it be most simple to make __builtin items not destroyable by explosions altogether?

Under what circumstances is it desirable that dropped items get destroyed by explosions or similar? Is that a performance consideration? Wouldn't it be most simple to make __builtin items not destroyable by explosions altogether?

AzelfYL commented

2024-04-18 04:01:31 +00:00

they are already coded to drop either 1 or 2 scales on every death, but those drops might get destroyed through various means. i'm not aware of any way for drops to fail entirely, and that's something i've had attention on.

Iirc you once made it so that dragons dont drop any scales if they don't get killed by a player, did you not?

we also learned that drops can be destroyed by explosions when we were debugging balrog whip drops - at the least, we should add the same protections we a to dragon scales.

Good call, you should probably consider adding that

> they are already coded to drop either 1 or 2 scales on every death, but those drops might get destroyed through various means. i'm not aware of any way for drops to fail entirely, and that's something i've had attention on. Iirc you once made it so that dragons dont drop any scales if they don't get killed by a player, did you not? > we also learned that drops can be destroyed by explosions when we were debugging balrog whip drops - at the least, we should add the same protections we a to dragon scales. Good call, you should probably consider adding that

AliasAlreadyTaken commented

2024-04-18 04:05:26 +00:00

they are already coded to drop either 1 or 2 scales on every death, but those drops might get destroyed through various means. i'm not aware of any way for drops to fail entirely, and that's something i've had attention on.

Iirc you once made it so that dragons dont drop any scales if they don't get killed by a player, did you not?

True, if dragons are killed by anything but a player, they don't drop dragon scales. With 200 HP and everything killing everything in the nether, a dragon doesn't survive very long and a player needs to hastily try to kill it in company with and competition against all other damage sources.

That's unreasonable, dragons are meant to be the apex predator of the Nether, much like the balrog is meant to be apex predator of the Deep.

> > they are already coded to drop either 1 or 2 scales on every death, but those drops might get destroyed through various means. i'm not aware of any way for drops to fail entirely, and that's something i've had attention on. > > Iirc you once made it so that dragons dont drop any scales if they don't get killed by a player, did you not? True, if dragons are killed by anything but a player, they don't drop dragon scales. With 200 HP and everything killing everything in the nether, a dragon doesn't survive very long and a player needs to hastily try to kill it in company with and competition against all other damage sources. That's unreasonable, dragons are meant to be the apex predator of the Nether, much like the balrog is meant to be apex predator of the Deep.

👍 1

AzelfYL commented

2024-04-18 04:20:06 +00:00

True, if dragons are killed by anything but a player, they don't drop dragon scales. With 200 HP and everything killing everything in the nether, a dragon doesn't survive very long and a player needs to hastily try to kill it in company with and competition against all other damage sources.

That's unreasonable, dragons are meant to be the apex predator of the Nether, much like the balrog is meant to be apex predator of the Deep.

It's funny now that you bring that up, since if you think about it comparatively dragons are threatwise a borderline joke in terms of threat level in the nether. explosive damage? withers are far far deadlier and spawn far more often. general mob damage? whips, screw whips, and also even iron golems are more dangerous damage wise. Hell, when fighting my dragons I was more likely to die to fall damage/evokers.

I do however think the only way to rebalance dragons to fit in with this view is to overhaul them and all their drops.

Perhaps the dragons could be rebalanced to have a massively increased HP pool, alongside a heavily buffed fire attack, but now will always drop scales? (but are guaranteed to drop more when being killed by a player - i know the original patch was made to screw with people named shanish) In addition, I think dragons should have like a 3x increased spawn rate on deep netherrack, aka the unabashedly most dangerous node/area in the nether because the nether's dangerous and stupid instakill mobs like whips and iron golems spawn there

> True, if dragons are killed by anything but a player, they don't drop dragon scales. With 200 HP and everything killing everything in the nether, a dragon doesn't survive very long and a player needs to hastily try to kill it in company with and competition against all other damage sources. > > That's unreasonable, dragons are meant to be the apex predator of the Nether, much like the balrog is meant to be apex predator of the Deep. It's funny now that you bring that up, since if you think about it comparatively dragons are threatwise a borderline joke in terms of threat level in the nether. explosive damage? withers are far far deadlier and spawn far more often. general mob damage? whips, screw whips, and also even iron golems are more dangerous damage wise. Hell, when fighting my dragons I was more likely to die to fall damage/evokers. I do however think the only way to rebalance dragons to fit in with this view is to overhaul them and all their drops. Perhaps the dragons could be rebalanced to have a massively increased HP pool, alongside a heavily buffed fire attack, but now will always drop scales? (but are guaranteed to drop more when being killed by a player - i know the original patch was made to screw with people named shanish) In addition, I think dragons should have like a 3x increased spawn rate on deep netherrack, aka the unabashedly most dangerous node/area in the nether because the nether's dangerous and stupid instakill mobs like whips and iron golems spawn there

AspireMint commented

2024-04-18 13:11:59 +00:00

I would like to see dragons more often than once per years.
But please, before you change spawn rate, make sure there is no way to afk farm it - then scales would lose their value. Just like "rare" petz.
I will try to write, explain, some of my ideas.

I suppose you know scales and whips are most expensive things on YL... So, they should be logged AND reviewed each time - maybe do snapshots of 3x3x3 mapblocks on dragon scales drop, maybe just logs, maybe just visit it with invisible account? (reviewed by devs(admins), to see anything suspicious, any afk huts)

I would do this to disable afk huts in nether (its related to dragon spawning):

if player is not moving (check distance) AND is not killing mobs for X minutes, then stop spawning mobs or better - they should not drop anything at all
reason: well one can make script to auto-walk or use carts/pets (horses/camels) to move
ban placing carts, pets, mesecons and digilines
reason: i think you know why ;)
rare events of most expensive items, they need special attention. Check logs whenever dragon scale or whip is obtained. Either do snapshots of area or just logs.
make private (for staff/admins) highscore of killed dragons and balrogs
reason: if is private: can indicate to staff that something is wrong; if is public: deterrent effect?

But 1) is problematic, because you can very easily find mapblocks which are empty - spawnit.. So first spawnit should be fixed, imo.

Things to do about dragon:

check conditions of spawning, and test it on testserver (i volunteer). Maybe im wrong, but from my experience i suspect there are code conflicts, like they can't spawn in sunlight - well, most of nether is in sunlight because of light glitch and we can't use /fixlighing command.
i didn't see code, so IF they spawn only at night, remove this condition
in spawnit, distance check should do opposite of what is doing now (now it supports afk hut players). So no spawning dragon if you are not moving!
make them MUCH stronger - i mean healths, 200 HP is... and i don't know much about their damage, i had no luck with dragons (read below my story). But would not make it just annoying?!
I mean, you already have to deal with withers around, and dragon will (i hope) have more HP. Damage is not what makes it better. If you can make withers run away from dragon, then okay, im for increasing dragons damage. But now as it is, i would say no to increasing damage.
IF you implement anti-hut things, then make them ALWAYS drop scales because they are already rare, why torture player? They are not common as balrog (common - from chat, i see players are very good at spawning balrogs in mines)
IF you make them less rare then drop chance make sense, and that would be nice thing - imagine you can go with someone else to nether on mission - kill dragon. You know you will find one because they would be common, you don't care much about drop as it is fun to fight them with someone else. That can be fun.
Make them vulnerable only to player (+ maybe explosions and lava). Nothing else!

.

My story:
Luckily, after so much time spent in nether, fighting mobs of course, i found 2 dragons. That day, it was 12 hours long journey in nether.
Sadly, first dragon decided to fist fight with wither or ogre only to die after 10 seconds of fight. I had no time to do anything. No dragon scales. Thanks mobs!
Second dragon was wiser, flew near ceiling to die after 20 seconds. Wither explosions probably. I had no time to get near dragon. Again no scales. Thanks mobs!
Question, was it really that weak or just old spawned dragon with few HP left?
Anyway, 200 HP is too low for dragon which should be strongest (hp) mob in nether.
Some players said they make purple fire, but i saw no fire :( Is it bug?
I was lucky to see first dragon flying low above lava, second dragon was harder to see.
Here is screenshot of first dragon and possibly wither that killed it:

I would like to see dragons more often than once per years. But please, before you change spawn rate, make sure there is no way to afk farm it - then scales would lose their value. Just like "rare" petz. I will try to write, explain, some of my ideas. I suppose you know scales and whips are most expensive things on YL... So, they should be logged AND reviewed each time - maybe do snapshots of 3x3x3 mapblocks on dragon scales drop, maybe just logs, maybe just visit it with invisible account? (reviewed by devs(admins), to see anything suspicious, any afk huts) I would do this to disable afk huts in nether (its related to dragon spawning): 1) if player is not moving (check distance) AND is not killing mobs for X minutes, then stop spawning mobs or better - they should not drop anything at all reason: well one can make script to auto-walk or use carts/pets (horses/camels) to move 2) ban placing carts, pets, _mesecons and digilines_ reason: i think you know why ;) 3) rare events of most expensive items, they need special attention. Check logs whenever dragon scale or whip is obtained. Either do snapshots of area or just logs. 4) make private (for staff/admins) highscore of killed dragons and balrogs reason: if is private: can indicate to staff that something is wrong; if is public: deterrent effect? But 1) is problematic, because you can very easily find mapblocks which are empty - spawnit.. So first spawnit should be fixed, imo. Things to do about dragon: - check conditions of spawning, and test it on testserver (i volunteer). Maybe im wrong, but from my experience i suspect there are code conflicts, like they can't spawn in sunlight - well, most of nether is in sunlight because of light glitch and we can't use /fixlighing command. - i didn't see code, so IF they spawn only at night, remove this condition - in spawnit, distance check should do opposite of what is doing now (now it supports afk hut players). So no spawning dragon if you are not moving! - make them MUCH stronger - i mean healths, 200 HP is... and i don't know much about their damage, i had no luck with dragons (read below my story). But would not make it just annoying?! I mean, you already have to deal with withers around, and dragon will (i hope) have more HP. Damage is not what makes it better. If you can make withers run away from dragon, then okay, im for increasing dragons damage. But now as it is, i would say no to increasing damage. - IF you implement anti-hut things, then make them ALWAYS drop scales because they are already rare, why torture player? They are not common as balrog (common - from chat, i see players are very good at spawning balrogs in mines) - IF you make them less rare then drop chance make sense, and that would be nice thing - imagine you can go with someone else to nether on mission - kill dragon. You know you will find one because they would be common, you don't care much about drop as it is fun to fight them with someone else. That can be fun. - Make them vulnerable only to player (+ maybe explosions and lava). Nothing else! . My story: Luckily, after so much time spent in nether, fighting mobs of course, i found 2 dragons. That day, it was 12 hours long journey in nether. Sadly, first dragon decided to fist fight with wither or ogre only to die after 10 seconds of fight. I had no time to do anything. No dragon scales. Thanks mobs! Second dragon was wiser, flew near ceiling to die after 20 seconds. Wither explosions probably. I had no time to get near dragon. Again no scales. Thanks mobs! Question, was it really that weak or just old spawned dragon with few HP left? Anyway, 200 HP is too low for dragon which should be strongest (hp) mob in nether. Some players said they make purple fire, but i saw no fire :( Is it bug? I was lucky to see first dragon flying low above lava, second dragon was harder to see. Here is screenshot of first dragon and possibly wither that killed it: ![first-dragon.png](/attachments/1ec1becd-e84e-43b8-9eb5-fa83637573de)

first-dragon.png

278 KiB

AzelfYL commented

2024-04-18 14:10:37 +00:00

I would do this to disable afk huts in nether (its related to dragon spawning):

if player is not moving (check distance) AND is not killing mobs for X minutes, then stop spawning mobs or better - they should not drop anything at all
reason: well one can make script to auto-walk or use carts/pets (horses/camels) to move

I don't think alias will put this in, as it could encourage players to just cocoon themselves in the wall and wait for nether mobs to stop spawning and bam they safe. This goes against his idea of the nether (no safe places) so...

ban placing carts, pets, mesecons and digilines
reason: i think you know why ;)

~~A bounty has been placed on you be every nether farm user~~

rare events of most expensive items, they need special attention. Check logs whenever dragon scale or whip is obtained. Either do snapshots of area or just logs.
make private (for staff/admins) highscore of killed dragons and balrogs
reason: if is private: can indicate to staff that something is wrong; if is public: deterrent effect?

I approve of these changes, also gives the admins a good way to get me to shut up on asking who's in the balrog whip/dragonscale boot club

make them MUCH stronger - i mean healths, 200 HP is... and i don't know much about their damage, i had no luck with dragons (read below my story). But would not make it just annoying?!
I mean, you already have to deal with withers around, and dragon will (i hope) have more HP. Damage is not what makes it better. If you can make withers run away from dragon, then okay, im for increasing dragons damage. But now as it is, i would say no to increasing damage.

Approve, these were literally some of the changes i suggested for dragons. Maybe reduce their fireball speed but massively increase the damage?

IF you implement anti-hut things, then make them ALWAYS drop scales because they are already rare, why torture player? They are not common as balrog (common - from chat, i see players are very good at spawning balrogs in mines)

Balrogs aint as common as you think. I don't know why so many people are running into them now, but when I go deep mining I almost never tend to run into them. Although I still think they're more common than dragons.

> I would do this to disable afk huts in nether (its related to dragon spawning): > > if player is not moving (check distance) AND is not killing mobs for X minutes, then stop spawning mobs or better - they should not drop anything at all > reason: well one can make script to auto-walk or use carts/pets (horses/camels) to move I don't think alias will put this in, as it could encourage players to just cocoon themselves in the wall and wait for nether mobs to stop spawning and bam they safe. This goes against his idea of the nether (no safe places) so... > ban placing carts, pets, mesecons and digilines > reason: i think you know why ;) ~~A bounty has been placed on you be every nether farm user~~ > rare events of most expensive items, they need special attention. Check logs whenever dragon scale or whip is obtained. Either do snapshots of area or just logs. > make private (for staff/admins) highscore of killed dragons and balrogs > reason: if is private: can indicate to staff that something is wrong; if is public: deterrent effect? I approve of these changes, also gives the admins a good way to get me to shut up on asking who's in the balrog whip/dragonscale boot club > make them MUCH stronger - i mean healths, 200 HP is... and i don't know much about their damage, i had no luck with dragons (read below my story). But would not make it just annoying?! > I mean, you already have to deal with withers around, and dragon will (i hope) have more HP. Damage is not what makes it better. If you can make withers run away from dragon, then okay, im for increasing dragons damage. But now as it is, i would say no to increasing damage. Approve, these were literally some of the changes i suggested for dragons. Maybe reduce their fireball speed but massively increase the damage? > IF you implement anti-hut things, then make them ALWAYS drop scales because they are already rare, why torture player? They are not common as balrog (common - from chat, i see players are very good at spawning balrogs in mines) Balrogs aint as common as you think. I don't know why so many people are running into them now, but when I go deep mining I almost never tend to run into them. Although I still think they're more common than dragons.

DragonWrangler commented

2024-04-18 15:48:50 +00:00

Approve, these were literally some of the changes i suggested for dragons. Maybe reduce their fireball speed but massively increase the damage?

With all the mobs around in the nether I don’t think that massively increasing the damage of dragons is a good idea. Especially since not everyone who fights them has a balrog whip.

If you can make withers run away from dragon, then okay, im for increasing dragons damage. But now as it is, i would say no to increasing damage.

I can agree.

Dragons could definently use more hp overall. I believe that these days the nether mobs mod gives some dragons a max hp cap of 300 and others a max of 200

> Approve, these were literally some of the changes i suggested for dragons. Maybe reduce their fireball speed but massively increase the damage? With all the mobs around in the nether I don’t think that massively increasing the damage of dragons is a good idea. Especially since not everyone who fights them has a balrog whip. > If you can make withers run away from dragon, then okay, im for increasing dragons damage. But now as it is, i would say no to increasing damage. I can agree. Dragons could definently use more hp overall. I believe that these days the nether mobs mod gives some dragons a max hp cap of 300 and others a max of 200

AspireMint commented

2024-04-18 23:43:57 +00:00

Could you add sound effects? So that if they spawn near you (above you in dark), you do not miss them. Something like balrog has...
Maybe roar when they spawn.

Could you add sound effects? So that if they spawn near you (above you in dark), you do not miss them. Something like balrog has... Maybe roar when they spawn.

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Jammy commented

2024-04-19 00:11:24 +00:00

Yep right now the dragons were comparable to a "scale delivery". Its low HP and easily-dying properties make it sound nothing like a boss.

Boot commented

2024-04-19 20:24:42 +00:00

Dragons can be the bosses in the Nether even with little HP, simply because their scales are impervious to whither heads, balrog whips, and ele swords.

👍 1

flux commented

2024-04-20 02:25:26 +00:00

EDIT: this is something i typed up a yesterday (or the day before?) i might be missing some replies.

Under what circumstances is it desirable that dropped items get destroyed by explosions or similar?

"realism" i suppose?

Is that a performance consideration?

no

Wouldn't it be most simple to make __builtin items not destroyable by explosions altogether?

sure, i'd be in favor of that.

Iirc you once made it so that dragons dont drop any scales if they don't get killed by a player, did you not?
make sure there is no way to afk farm it

i forgot about this - #4940.

this means that there's now a 1 in 3 chance of no scale at all when killed by a player. mobs_redo drop logic is garbage - there's no way to specify that the item shouldn't drop if a player doesn't kill it, but also make the drop certain if a player does.

disable afk huts in nether

this is already implemented with spawnit - mobs will not spawn near players that haven't done anything for 5 minutes (i forget the exact number). of course, this can be subverted with an autoclicker or something, but that's vaguely intractable.

dragons are meant to be the apex predator of the Nether, much like the balrog is meant to be apex predator of the Deep.

i'll get on that

EDIT: this is something i typed up a yesterday (or the day before?) i might be missing some replies. > Under what circumstances is it desirable that dropped items get destroyed by explosions or similar? "realism" i suppose? > Is that a performance consideration? no > Wouldn't it be most simple to make __builtin items not destroyable by explosions altogether? sure, i'd be in favor of that. > Iirc you once made it so that dragons dont drop any scales if they don't get killed by a player, did you not? > make sure there is no way to afk farm it i forgot about this - #4940. this means that there's now a 1 in 3 chance of no scale at all when killed by a player. mobs_redo drop logic is garbage - there's no way to specify that the item shouldn't drop if a player doesn't kill it, but also make the drop certain if a player does. > disable afk huts in nether this is already implemented with spawnit - mobs will not spawn near players that haven't done anything for 5 minutes (i forget the exact number). of course, this can be subverted with an autoclicker or something, but that's vaguely intractable. > dragons are meant to be the apex predator of the Nether, much like the balrog is meant to be apex predator of the Deep. i'll get on that

flux commented

2024-04-20 02:27:57 +00:00

from #5691:

  29402 yl_nether_mobs:whip
  22826 nether_mobs:netherman
  22038 yl_nether_mobs:witherskeleton
  18013 yl_nether_mobs:rat
  16996 yl_nether_mobs:ogre
  15378 yl_nether_mobs:evoker
  11817 yl_nether_mobs:blaze
   9249 yl_nether_mobs:wither
   3758 yl_nether_mobs:iron_golem
      1 nether_mobs:dragon

i think making dragons 10 or20 times more common is warranted, other balancing issues notwithstanding.

EDIT: for reference, balrog spawn rates over the same period (includes both the depths and the nether):

     26 mobs_balrog:balrog

from #5691: ``` 29402 yl_nether_mobs:whip 22826 nether_mobs:netherman 22038 yl_nether_mobs:witherskeleton 18013 yl_nether_mobs:rat 16996 yl_nether_mobs:ogre 15378 yl_nether_mobs:evoker 11817 yl_nether_mobs:blaze 9249 yl_nether_mobs:wither 3758 yl_nether_mobs:iron_golem 1 nether_mobs:dragon ``` i think making dragons 10 or20 times more common is warranted, other balancing issues notwithstanding. EDIT: for reference, balrog spawn rates over the same period (includes both the depths and the nether): ``` 26 mobs_balrog:balrog ```

AzelfYL commented

2024-04-20 02:38:33 +00:00

Also would it be possible to reduce (or even halt) the spawn rate of mobs near other mobs? This could provide a cool indication that a dragon is nearby (as in the player suddenly realises "wait, why are all the nether mobs no longer spawning? something is terribly wrong...")
especially if the dragons are meant to be an apex predator.

I'm ok with them being immune to balrog whip fire, but the pull should still affect them (basically like how voice mobs act)

Also would it be possible to reduce (or even halt) the spawn rate of mobs near other mobs? This could provide a cool indication that a dragon is nearby (as in the player suddenly realises "wait, why are all the nether mobs no longer spawning? something is terribly wrong...") especially if the dragons are meant to be an apex predator. I'm ok with them being immune to balrog whip fire, but the pull should still affect them (basically like how voice mobs act)

flux commented

2024-04-20 02:46:35 +00:00

EDIT: i got very distracted when documenting my response here, apologies.

Dragons can be the bosses in the Nether even with little HP, simply because their scales are impervious to whither heads, balrog whips, and ele swords.

the balancing i've been aiming for with past mob balancing changes, is that a player should be taking down dragons before they try to take on a balrog, so that they can get the fire protection from dragonscale armor. dragons should be neither impossible to find, nor impossible to kill, but more reliable and challenging. vs. balrogs which should be much more dangerous for everyone, including the most-prepared players.

part of the problem with dragon balancing is the way that we currently try to scale the difficulty of the nether. because we can't provide supply quality mobs, we do quantity. imo we (well, probably me) should work on mob AI APIs that will let us make keep the nether equally dangerous without the same amount of mob spam.

imo, some spam is ok - evokers should be able to generate even more vexes than they currently do, but to balance that, the vexes should have shorter lifespans, should not be "physical" (so they can't prevent you from running away), and players need some sort of effective AOE weaponry which is more reliable than an electrumese sword.

EDIT: i got very distracted when documenting my response here, apologies. > Dragons can be the bosses in the Nether even with little HP, simply because their scales are impervious to whither heads, balrog whips, and ele swords. the balancing i've been aiming for with past mob balancing changes, is that a player should be taking down dragons before they try to take on a balrog, so that they can get the fire protection from dragonscale armor. dragons should be neither impossible to find, nor impossible to kill, but more reliable and challenging. vs. balrogs which should be much more dangerous for everyone, including the most-prepared players. part of the problem with dragon balancing is the way that we currently try to scale the difficulty of the nether. because we can't provide supply quality mobs, we do quantity. imo we (well, probably me) should work on mob AI APIs that will let us make keep the nether equally dangerous without the same amount of mob spam. imo, some spam is ok - evokers should be able to generate even *more* vexes than they currently do, but to balance that, the vexes should have shorter lifespans, should not be "physical" (so they can't prevent you from running away), and players need some sort of effective AOE weaponry which is more reliable than an electrumese sword.

AzelfYL commented

2024-04-20 13:48:48 +00:00

dragons should be neither impossible to find, nor impossible to kill, but more reliable and challenging. vs. balrogs which should be much more dangerous for everyone, including the most-prepared players.

The issue with dragons vs balrogs is that unlike the underground, the nether is actively trying to kill you. Yeah the occasional dungeon master or two would pop up, but in the grand scheme of things, the underground's very environment isn't working against you when fighting a balrog, at the most the worst it does is leaving you with a hidden fall that sends you plummeting to your death, but if that happens it's frankly on you for not lighting up the place. The nether is actively trying to kill you, so most of the difficulty in fighting dragons isn't fighting the dragons, its fighting everything that isn't the dragon (especially when trying to prevent flux's anti-farm code from triggering).

part of the problem with dragon balancing is the way that we currently try to scale the difficulty of the nether. because we can't provide supply quality mobs, we do quantity. imo we (well, probably me) should work on mob AI APIs that will let us make keep the nether equally dangerous without the same amount of mob spam.

The primary issue with the nether is that the spawning when it works properly is actually BOTH quantity and quality. Some nether mobs are exceptionally difficult to kill (unless they're like the weaker ones but those aren't sought after and have bad drops anyways) because they already do so much damage (evoker, those stupid whips, iron golems, withers come to mind) and they spawn in brutally massive numbers that nether land becomes infested by them and is basically impassable. Which is also a big problem for dragon hunting because that's where dragons tend to spawn.

In addition the ability of a bunch of the aforementioned mobs to pop up and instantly kill you is part of the problem - and you need to be in the places where you risk that happening to kill a dragon ideally. I don't like this aspect, but i think if you are adamant about keeping it in, it could be done that the places where these mobs can spawn are more likely places for dragons to spawn. See what I ranted in the above suggestions.

players need some sort of effective AOE weaponry which is more reliable than an electrumese sword.

I've been constantly asking for such a weapon, although i don't think one will likely come in due time.

Overall I think a rework of dragons would require reworking large parts of the nether alongside it which would be better sited for its own report (do we even have a nether balancing report? I keep asking that question again and again...)

> dragons should be neither impossible to find, nor impossible to kill, but more reliable and challenging. vs. balrogs which should be much more dangerous for everyone, including the most-prepared players. The issue with dragons vs balrogs is that unlike the underground, the nether is actively trying to kill you. Yeah the occasional dungeon master or two would pop up, but in the grand scheme of things, the underground's very environment isn't working against you when fighting a balrog, at the most the worst it does is leaving you with a hidden fall that sends you plummeting to your death, but if that happens it's frankly on you for not lighting up the place. The nether is actively trying to kill you, so most of the difficulty in fighting dragons isn't fighting the dragons, its fighting everything that isn't the dragon (especially when trying to prevent flux's anti-farm code from triggering). > part of the problem with dragon balancing is the way that we currently try to scale the difficulty of the nether. because we can't provide supply quality mobs, we do quantity. imo we (well, probably me) should work on mob AI APIs that will let us make keep the nether equally dangerous without the same amount of mob spam. The primary issue with the nether is that the spawning when it works properly is actually BOTH quantity and quality. Some nether mobs are exceptionally difficult to kill (unless they're like the weaker ones but those aren't sought after and have bad drops anyways) because they already do so much damage (evoker, those stupid whips, iron golems, withers come to mind) and they spawn in brutally massive numbers that nether land becomes infested by them and is basically impassable. Which is also a big problem for dragon hunting because that's where dragons tend to spawn. In addition the ability of a bunch of the aforementioned mobs to pop up and instantly kill you is part of the problem - and you need to be in the places where you risk that happening to kill a dragon ideally. I don't like this aspect, but i think if you are adamant about keeping it in, it could be done that the places where these mobs can spawn are more likely places for dragons to spawn. See what I ranted in the above suggestions. > players need some sort of effective AOE weaponry which is more reliable than an electrumese sword. I've been constantly asking for such a weapon, although i don't think one will likely come in due time. Overall I think a rework of dragons would require reworking large parts of the nether alongside it which would be better sited for its own report (do we even have a nether balancing report? I keep asking that question again and again...)

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