Sokomine reports: this base may not violate any rules, but i still see a problem with it: it blocks travellers and loo ... #8665
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Sokomine reports a bug:
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I believe we have discussed in the past about discouraging new, young or just not very talented builders... to be honest, I'm pretty disappointed to see it continues. The base in question is over 4500m away from the nearest city and nothing is within 300 of it minimum and probably much more, in every direction.
This kind of report takes time to address and sadly accomplishes nothing because it is not accompanied by some great suggestions to help builders improve. And a lot of our kids are very excited and proud of their builds - builds you or I would not feel that proud of. So you can imagine how hurt they would be to know that? So if you must report such things, go ahead and make a great suggestion on what to do about it exactly... how's that?
I have been on early versions of Your Land so I know for a fact what everyone's early builds really looked like! This kind of ongoing complaint is just not welcome and seems pointless - and is just plain unfair considering where we all started.
And no, of course I don't love the build either - it's now how I build in any way - but to each his own? Besides, I haven't got time to give building tips on top of everything else I do... the best I've been able to come up with is including an "improve your building" URL on a sign at one of my award winning builds, because I actually learned how to build watching youtube videos. I don't know what else could be done to be honest. But I wouldn't dream of reporting a build out in the wild just because it didn't meet my personal standards, nor try to gather support to somehow outlaw it? Outrageous.
I couldn't find anything in the area, what exactly is it blocking players from getting to? Maybe what you're saying is that it's offensive in same way that Alias' cobble boxes or sky/ocean platforms are? Or big huge flat strip mined land because a lot of builders just can't think without clearing their canvas first... in a move that disturbs me BADLY because I actually LIKE the land to inspire me and I wouldn't dream of flattening it before building... but a lot of players do feel the need to do that, especially young, inexperienced ones who just need some help, some videos, some guidance?
But we don't actually outlaw strip mined land, flat land (half the cities would have to go lol) or cobble boxes out in the wild minding their own business. I just don't know what we can do about it, I'm open to hearing your suggestions!
Your Land cares about the players, encourages them, teaches them manners and patience and how to make friends, and many things more important then everyone building to BotM winners standards. Let's remember what we stand for and it's more than enough. Your Land is a positive force in the lives of our players... all of them, not just the super talented ones. Let's keep that in mind.
This player invited me to tour this build not long ago - because they were very proud of it. It would break my heart to have him hurt with some comment about his hard honest work. That is just not what I'm about online, in gaming, anywhere.
Maybe a community 'build quality together" project? Tips and tricks from award winning builders event?
Demos? Boot did a nice building progression demo in Rubodyke... We could be sending players off to review that? Altho they're in a city that is somewhat visually overwhelming already so possibly overstimulating while trying to take it all in... especially when new of course.
Your Land is a LOT to take in when you're new, visually - at least it was for me. I well remember thinking I could never find my way to to the goblin catapult by myself - I mean honestly - it's that bad!
Or instead of build contests, we could try a build tour where we go around to ones players are interested in and the builder gives a talk about their process?
Having treasure hunts in and around great builds in different locations could be a way to get eyes on goals...
Ideas?
My favorite thing about BotM was the beautiful write-up Cache did for the AR magazine article.
I'd love to have a monthly "Builder Spotlight" not with the most amazing builders only but with any builder who has improved, inspired, helped out, deserves to be seen and heard... take screenshots, put on discord along with some Q&A (reboot AR magazine interviews!) like:
What inspired you?
How long did this build take?
What was your biggest challenge with this build?
How do you feel you've grown as a builder?
What are some building tips and tricks you would like to share?
These kinds of questions will really open the window on the process for all players, it's fun, it's interesting and it could really open up to inspiration from a new builder every month without the need to compete.
Let's tell the story of how to grow as a builder instead of pitting builders against one another... instead of judging, we could just be inspiring :)
[mic drop]
Young players should be less infected by the idea that they immediately need an entire city for themselves. If they are under less pressure in this regard, then they can make their first base small and the angular can take place underground. This first small base could be a house, a farm, and it should deliberately leave room for later expansion. For such a first small base, you don't have to level huge levels right away, because it just fits everywhere. Several farms then form a small village and only then do you need functional buildings and maybe a small palisade ring around it, instead of immediately the full cobble load.
and how do you propose we tell new players what and how to build? It seems too fussy and restrictive to me. If I was the newbie I'd run away fast and not return under such preciousness.
I'm promoting encouragement and exampling over judgementalism and nobody is listening LOL
Im listening. I encouraged ppl. But its a slow and cumbersome process. But they evolved and thats what im earning, seeing them evolving.
We have to think about that. And animate newbies to build their thing. Then going by and tell them some tricks and tipps how they can do their builds more interesting.
To prevent too much citys there are already rules. Thats enough.
But as an expirienced player going with them on their way is a good thing that everyone can do.
Sure, why not. Gives one of the bailiff NPCs some more work they can do. They'll certainly enjoy it!
[Edit] Most likely wrote that here in the wrong thread as it's unrelated. Please see my new answer.
In this particular case, my complaint really is about the building blocking passage. I don't remember why I wanted to walk to the other side - Wandertag, or to get to another build in the area?
Regarding that point, Haven walls - and most city walls - suffer the same problem: They block traffic. Good city walls have gates where people can enter and leave.
People settling somewhere usually fascilitate and shape traffic in a region. There might be that narrow point everyone has to pass through so that tolls can be collected, but - there's some form of road or path. If there's just a big pointless wall around an area, then that's an annoying obstacle to traffic.
And then there's Alias' worry about people building walls around their areas and blocking access to other builds and areas. This was mentionned as an important factor for the distance rule.
We already have quite a few rules forbidding floating plattforms and the like. I want an additional rule not to block traffic needlessly - to allow people to travel through and around and to be able to access other builds nearby. Make travelling on your plot better than before - not worse! Admittedly, this is not a rule that can be enforced automaticly. Sometimes builds have to block things deliberately. But neither can other rules be checked automaticly.
And yes, come to think of it: To me, it's a floating platform. There are pro forma dirt walls underneath, so it doesn't violate Alias' no-floating-plattform rule. But the effect is barely any better. A pure floating plattform would look equally ugly there - but at least not block traffic. In RL, I definitely wouldn't want to stand next to such a high dirt wall! At least we have no rain here....
I'm proposing an additional rule: Don't needlessly block access to anything else. If necessary, build a path/road on which people can walk. Guide visitors through your area - don't just block them out!
Regarding improving build style for new players: Everything that helps them is good. It's not to be expected that everyone can build well from the start. It's a process. It takes time. Players shall have that time! And they may have diffrent methods to learn. The more ways we can offer them, the better! Not each way may fit to each player. With more options, the likelyhood of something useful for each new builder increases a lot.
I see the following main problems that motivate new players to create ugly bases:
Mapgen is beautiful. But not easy to build in. The terrain is just too difficult for (most) beginners and large builds in general. Most beginners need something easier, flatter, more fitting to their (current) capabilities.
/protect_this is a very helpful command. The big drawback is that it protects a far too big area. Larger builds require more details, more work, more effort. Starting with something moderately sized can help a lot.
They have to walk a long time and settle far from anyone else (at least 150m). That way, it gets far more likely that the next best place that can be protected will be protected - regardless of terrain and suitability.
There are no immediate neighbours from which one might learn and exchange ideas. Visitors are rare.
What might help:
Tell new players about locked chests. With the various locked chests we have, there's far less reason to worry that any visitor will "steal" something! Too many builds out there use normal chests where locked ones would be appropriate (also helps to see who built it).
Teach players how to do underground farming. That's way less ugly and requires less flattening of terrain. Most players probably don't know about this option. Saves a lot of space. Could be encouraged by selling SGG slabs for a cheap price and creating new ones with a machine.
Actually give them a chance and room to build, experiment and learn. Currently, we probably loose quite a few players who never manage to find a place where they can build. Getting to the wilderness is not that easy. And then the distance rule cuts in and makes it more difficult. And those who do manage and aren't up to the task annoy those who pass by and prefer nice builds.
A tree farm can - thanks to choppy - be very simple and small = less flat space needed.
Add more nice looking doors and windows. Easy way to make at least smaller buildings look better even for less skilled builers. There's at least one issue hanging around here in the bugtracker about addiong those.
Tamed animals and the fear that those might get killed is another issue. Dreamcatcher and mob protection runes may be too tricky for beginners. In such a case, placing most animals into a chest and using a locked door might solve the issue until the protection items can be obtained.
Hostile mobs may be a problem, especially at the start. Some of this is due to it beeing a survival server, but...mostly it makes life for new players harder, while better equipped players mostly have to choose their AFK spots more carefully. Hostile mobs may be one reason for huge ugly walls.
Many of those ideas are about building a base. When I join a server, usually I start with an unobtrusive door leading into a small hollowed-out area in a mountain (like what Redshirt has along North Haven Road). Helping players to understand some mechanisms may help.
The other mayor point is offering easier landscape, more suitable to the skills of beginners. Yes, mapgen is often beautiful and amazing - but it's not the right mapgen for those who have no experience and are just starting. Perhaps Alias can add a...layer...of more flat land - like the Nether or that planned layer of islands? The whole game is a sandbox on more than one level. Perhaps we can have one where beginners can do experiments, where they have room to just build and learn from it? Older, less good looking mapgens were a lot easier there. Flatter, less vegetation.
daydream wrote:
You're right that it might be too visually overwhelming. It's a great tutorial nevertheless! And I'd be very happy if players could reach level 2 there. Which is not asking that much.
daydream wrote:
That's not just you. I've been playing MT for almost a decade before joining the YL server. And I had trouble finding my way around as well (have on each new server/map).
daydream wrote:
Maybe. Or some smaller-scale build contest. One for beginners? Where we go around and say what we like about each build? But that all only catches a few players.
daydream wrote:
Those are definitely fun. Just...not very helpful in this regard. The players would have to come back. A treasure hunt is something where we're all in a hurry and run around...no time for nice details.
daydrewam wrote:
That (hopefully) happens on a small scale every time. We all learn from others, "steal" great ideas here, get inspired there, enjoy viewing that build over there...
daydream wrote:
In general, that's a very good attitude.
In this case, some time later a wandertag target was activated at the place. I don't think that's fitting.
But neither of this solves the problem. We need to give new players room so that they can find a place to build and experiment! The same build wouldn't be such a problem on a flat(ter) mapgen. It even shows some potential. Maybe Alias can help us there somehow? Those players that never find a place to settle - or, worse - can't protect their build - that's also a big problem. Would a layer with no distance rules and flatter mapgen be possible?
Sokomine:
In this particular case, my complaint really is about the building blocking passage. I don't remember why I wanted to walk to the other side - Wandertag, or to get to another build in the area?
daydream:
Whatever it was, that build is in the middle of nowhere and altho ugly, isn't breaking a single rule I would want to have. Just go around, it's a private base, the owner doesn't need to let anyone in much less help them go thru nicely.
Sokomine:
Regarding that point, Haven walls - and most city walls - suffer the same problem: They block traffic. Good city walls have gates where people can enter and leave.
daydream:
It's true, Haven Walls don't set a great example, they set an example nobody actually wants to set.
Sokomine:
And then there's Alias' worry about people building walls around their areas and blocking access to other builds and areas. This was mentionned as an important factor for the distance rule.
daydream:
A wilderness base needs protection from mobs spawning nearby... everyone has the right to feel protected in their own base and not constantly attacked by the hundreds of mobs that can accumulate outside bases.
Sokomine:
I'm proposing an additional rule: Don't needlessly block access to anything else. If necessary, build a path/road on which people can walk. Guide visitors through your area - don't just block them out!
daydream:
Sorry a base in the middle of nowhere is under no obligation to allow anyone to walk thru at all. Privacy is a big thing on Your Land, and a fundamental thing that Alias won't budge on or I could have had gliders by now.
Sokomine:
Mapgen is beautiful. But not easy to build in. The terrain is just too difficult for (most) beginners and large builds in general. Most beginners need something easier, flatter, more fitting to their (current) capabilities.
daydream:
Providing flat space is what Aventiure does. Maybe we need an Aventiure 2.0 that is larger, but wilderness flat space should be discouraged... it's a shame when any builder gets into the habbit of flattening out their land like a clean canvas only to build a flat one dimensional base over the top of this boring flatness. Cities have been abandoned for such things (Miestrite Linn for example) and yet the habit is so strong, the new city to replace is also started completely flat and never came into fullness. Learning to work with the terrain produces much more beautiful cities and this can be shown in demos by any city that took advantage of it.
Sokomine:
/protect_this is too large...
daydream:
It's not so bad for size... the world is HUGE, much of it has never been walked upon in over 4 years time! And it creates some buffer from mobb attacks until a fence or wall can be put up too. Sure it's nice if there's access in all directions to visit, but it's not required and can't be. But the size doesn't bother me at all. A nice base with room for a garden is a draw in the wilderness over a small plot, and that is a form of balancing.
Sokomine:
[tell new players about protection and locking chests...]
I ask every new player PROTECT FIRST, BUILD SECOND and also please use lock chests! This message could and should be part of the JOIN MESSAGE for all newbies and echod frequently by all bailiffs and helpers.
Sokomine:
[about ugly farming]
daydream:
I don't think farms are ugly, I love them, but sure I've seen the ugly one you are talking about, sticking out a huge cliff of dirt just to be flat. That's just lack of experience in making things nice. That player was proud of their work, they are very new and thought they did a lot of work and wanted to show it off. If someone wants to explain nice looking gardening, go for it, but attacking some newbie who is proud of their work is not the right way to do it.
I would not like to see underground gardening become something we actively push. There are lots of underground gardens as it is, but I don't see any reason to push for them.
Sokomine
[losing tamed animals]
One fast way to learn to protect them is to use your brain and learn, and ask questions. Not a lot of people just lose their animals over and over for years without asking and learning or figuring it out. It's a survival server, not disneyland. If the animals is very rare and the log shows no fault of the owner, they are taken care of anyways.
Sokomine
[Why huge walls]
I agree, players are extremely afraid of mobs and being attacked even tho in the beginning there is next to not real harm in a few deaths. And along the way each player dies a bit less the more they learn. Yes it's a survival server in this sense.
Sokomine:
[beginner areas... flat ones]
daydream:
Aventiure or a second Aventiure could help with this. Newbies are mostly afraid of death, I remember very well how much I was afraid to die when I was new too, because I didn't know it wasn't a horrible tragic thing at first... later when you have lots of experience to lose, it is not good! But early in the game it's fine.
daydream wrote:
Boot did a nice building progression demo in Rubodyke... We could be sending players off to review that? Altho they're in a city that is somewhat visually overwhelming already so possibly overstimulating while trying to take it all in... especially when new of course.
Sokominen wrote:
You're right that it might be too visually overwhelming. It's a great tutorial nevertheless! And I'd be very happy if players could reach level 2 there. Which is not asking that much.
daydream:
We can offer it, but we probably won't ever force anyone to learn, it's just not that tragic that some builds are ugly. My first cobble box where I lived for the first six months got given to another player who tried to make it look nicer... it's still pretty bad, but there should be room for all levels of players, it's a big world.
daydream wrote:
... we could try a build tour where we go around to ones players are interested in and the builder gives a talk about their process? Or play games in areas with good builds so they get noticed. If someone is interested in what they see, they will return and study it, I have no doubts. If they're not interested, nothing we try to spoon feed them will get swallowed.
Sokomine wrote:
In this case, some time later a wandertag target was activated at the place. I don't think that's fitting.
daydream:
I would like to implement a wandertag up or down thumb... if it gets more down, it doesn't get reactivated, period. (Unless the obvious we notice it's some conspiracy to stop someone or organizied movement, then we can decide and override such things.)
Newbies that arn't capable of understanding a survival server (OR who really just want to goof around and not work too hard because they simply don't enjoy gaming in that way) or how to build things, how to protect things are very seldom cut out to live in the wilderness no matter how you look at it. Even when they choose it, they often don't use lock chests or protect their builds. Such people are better off enjoying the game from the safety of Aventiure and the like, at least to start out with.
Long term players tend to have big dreams that grow over the months with their abilities anyways. I see no benefit in spending months developing for players that don't have the interest to pay attention, learn or grow on their own to some degree. That is what cities like Aventiure are perfectly designed for already.
I would like to open a commercial city called Merchville where players could open shops and get all the shops out of Aventiure and leave it for it's intended purpose... for newebies that can't cope with the wilderness.
Another idea I had was a more medieval themed version of Aventiure, with the 4 city center buildings demonstrating small scale builds of high quality in the medieval them and the city itself promoting sustainable things newbies can actually learn and grow from. But newbie cities will always need to be flat because the plots need to be interchangable quickly and easily for fast turnover and replacement. But Aventiure lacks this theme and so if we build another one (and just leave present Aventiure a mix of newbies and shops, we could promote Aventiure 2.0 or give players the option... such as:
If you agree to learn medieval theme building choose Aventiure2 and if you just want to make a box, go with Aventiure :)
daydream wrote:
Ok, then we disagree on this point. Sure, it's possible to go around. But I still believe it would be better to motivate players to fascilitate travel on and through their areas. That is just basic curtesy.
daydream wrote:
That's highly likely, yes. At least explains a lot of walls. Hmm. Perhaps we ought to introduce a...hedge system? Some saplings that don't create trees or low bushes but rather form a not so ugly looking wall of vegetation that stops hostile creatures from getting in (ghosts remain a problem). That'd be something I'd love to have for my mg_villages mod - for smaller hamlets - as well. So instead of having huge ugly walls just plant this (still needs to be invented :)) around and be happy :-) Less hassle than building a wall - and looks less ugly. Or...would Voice object? :-)
daydream wrote:
Pity :-( But you may be right. Though a base in a mountain could have all the privacy it wants....nobody'd even notice it's there if it's deep enough. Can't have more privacy than that. And privacy wasn't even a concern here.
daydream wrote:
At least some small degree of flat space is always needed - even for the small houses I build. People don't like the floors of their rooms sloped. That's of course a tiny amount compared to the flatness often found. There are a lot of other factors making it tempting to many - more flatness than needed for living in - especially farm lands, plots and larger builds (there it might be sometimes justified).
I'm afraid the current situation leads to players running out in the wilderness, searching for a place they can protect, searching long, getting warning after warning, finally finding a place they can protect - and taking the next best one they can get. It's taken so long to search after all. Then walls are needed to keep hostile mobs out. Then flat space is needed to build house and farms. And then they might wonder why a passing Sokomine doesn't like the result even though it did cost so much effort to flatten that space, build the wall and construct the box.
By far not all players are like this. Some others just look for a spot they like, don't know they have to protect first, build a more or less good house (most are sufficiently on the good side to be enjoyable to find) - and then put up a sign begging not to steal from their unlocked chests. It's often a pity that there's not even a hint who built it.
These are just two types of players. The resulting builds are common all over Your Land and in part on other servers as well.
daydream wrote:
Yes, it's huge. Someone once calculated that there's no disk drive large enough to hold a fully explored map. That was with all layers included I think. The huge map also causes the server to need more disk space, costing more money.
daydream wrote:
A...garden. Yes. Gardens are nice. Perhaps we don't use the word in the same way here? "garden" for me is a place with usually a lawn, flowers, some trees and fruit bushes growing, vegtables and herbs and fruits growing, maybe a tiny pond. A..private little park, in a way, but also for food production (optionally), enjoying the plants, sitting and reading, celebrating with friends, having a barbeque now and then.
In the case of these bases, there was more "garden" (in the form of wilderness) there before the build got built. What we see on those bases mostly are factory farms: Large square plots designated to one plant, made for easy farming. Easy farming requires flatness. Contrast that with the large grain fields sourrounding Rubodyke. Sure, Boot could harvest there if he'd really feel the need, but...it's not built for frequent harvesting. It's something that his city needs - farmland, nourishing the people living in the city, providing goods even for export and nourshing other cities - something that makes the city more immersive and greater.
daydream wrote:
Oh yes! Definitely! Any ways to make them more aware of this would be helpful. The lack of locked chests sadly hits those players more that I described as the second type - those that build something usually not that bad somewhere in the wilderness, can't protect, don't know about locked chests. The builders of large bases usually don't have that problem. Maybe they start later because they had to gather all those materials for their walls first, spend time to flatten the land - more time to pick up on locked chest than those who were capable of building something small but acceptable outright.
daydream wrote:
The one this issue is about is just a symthom. Huge flattened areas used for farmland are common. I don't know why players think that they need so much. That small 4-5 layer farm on my plot in Haven has fed me for years. Redshirt has two small fields growing carrots and the flax he needs. Some players seem to vastly overestimate how much food they're going to need. Smaller fields look better and need less flattened land.
daydream wrote:
Real underground gardens may exist. They're extremly rare. The church in Odonhull is something I'd count in that regard. Also a natural cave with some plants in may count. Underground farms are for producing needed food and materials - stached away where they won't disturb anyone, not build for looking nice.
daydream wrote:
You're very right here. I think some of the fear comes from beeing confused and not yet knowing their way around. If you know how to get to that place where you died, know where you have emergency gear stached or whom you can ask to lend it to you, know how to deal with mobs - then the aftereffects are less threatening, and the XP loss becomes the main problem.
daydream wrote:
Giving people room and time to learn and do it at their own pace is fine. I just think that starting a bit smaller and in an environment more suiting to their skill level would help a lot of players - and help avoid some ugliness.
daydream wrote:
Oh yes! I'm hoping very much that that gets implemented! Would love to activate further Wandertag targets. But with the current system - with them beeing discarded and thrown away by the system after a single use - no. And you're also right that some level of moderation and oversight is always needed. And I think we can handle that. Hopfully the Wandertag gets improved so that it's usable again! I'm very much waiting for that to happen.
daydream wrote:
I don't think we need to limit that to players who are new to survival. Such a base in a city is useful for almost everyone. Even experienced players profit from it. Trouble is that even though you're online very often, neither you nor anybody else human can cover 24/7. Alias has suggested some automatism for new players to get a plot. Maybe we can proceed in that direction?
daydream worte:
Intresting idea. Aveniture is due to its nature not an easy place for locating anything in particular. A shop city could also reduce the load in Haven, making it literally less expensive (yes, bandwidth and CPU time cost as well) to get to the sailship.
daydream wrote:
A plot city more focussed on medieval building, with perhaps plot expiration less based on time beeing absent but also on how far it fits the theme? That is: If it's good enough, the build can stay, even if the player is absent for a longer time? If it's not, the reassign-after-a-time can happen (building something new/rebuilding better is a good way to learn!). Sounds like a very nice idea for me. Could only work as a staff-run city (who doesn't have one city on YL already and could hold one otherwise? The city founding quest could still be done as a server-wide event for all to enjoy).
There's that little tavern I had built for the "Haven as it could have been" event. Perhaps that can come in handy.
Plot assignment needs to move to some automatic handling out via NPC. Nobody can be there all day to hand out new ones. Checking if a plot is good enough to keep as an example is still something that'd have to be manually done now and then.
Maybe we can work on such an NPC? Alias was planning to have such a mechanism for quite a while.
Doesn't really help with the bases out there and their builders' lack of skill for that environment. I can't bring myself to call something that isn't good good. That would be a lie. Humans need time to learn things and devellop. That's perfectly fine. The first attempts will be just that - rarely good. Not really a problem there, but...if they fill up the landscape too much, that's not enjoyable at all.
But if this new Aveniture (ought to have a new name) can help those builders that build something fitting their skill and even deserving protection and cheering up a traveller passing buy - but who lack knowledge of protection on all levels - that'd be great! And maybe a lot others can learn there as well?