Brainstorming about Heraldry and wearable shield designs #5262

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Chache · 2023-09-11T22:10:02Z

Chache commented

2023-09-11 22:10:02 +00:00

Alias wanted us to open this issue and comment our ideas on it. :)

Chache commented

2023-09-11 22:15:29 +00:00

Wearable heraldic shields:
There are currently 6 fields on the "armour" tab of the inventory, and only 5 things to wear. Let's take advantage of that. It has been suggested that:

You can place heraldic shields in one of those 6 fields.
When you do that, the player's avatar displays the heraldic shield instead of the defense shield.
You still need to wear a defense shield to get defense bonuses. Heraldic shields offer no defense bonus.

Some people have complained that, since displaying the heraldic shield covers what kind of defense shield the player is wielding, that can allow somebody to lie about their defense stats in a PvP fight. Personally I have no problem with that.

**Wearable heraldic shields:** There are currently 6 fields on the "armour" tab of the inventory, and only 5 things to wear. Let's take advantage of that. It has been suggested that: - You can place heraldic shields in one of those 6 fields. - When you do that, the player's avatar displays the heraldic shield instead of the defense shield. - You still need to wear a defense shield to get defense bonuses. Heraldic shields offer no defense bonus. Some people have complained that, since displaying the heraldic shield covers what kind of defense shield the player is wielding, that can allow somebody to lie about their defense stats in a PvP fight. Personally I have no problem with that.

Chache commented

2023-09-11 22:22:08 +00:00

City coat-of-arms system:
Another way of having players display a coat-of-arms would be based on citizenship (once cities are implemented).

We know it is planned to allow players to have a different "home city" than Haven, even having a different /spawn point in the corresponding city.

We could use the concept of citizenship to allow/disallow players to display the corresponding city's heraldic shield in their avatar.

Alias suggests you do that by distributing the actual heraldic shields of your city amongst only your most trustworthy retainers and bannersmen. JeCel sees the problem of people giving those away to others or losing them accidentally - not to mention the case of a quarrel between former master and vassal resulting in the latter being banished from the city. That would imply having to ask them to return the given shields.

I relate to JeCel's concerns here. A heraldic display system based on citizenship would eliminate all those problems altogether.

**City coat-of-arms system:** Another way of having players display a coat-of-arms would be based on citizenship (once cities are implemented). We know it is planned to allow players to have a different "home city" than Haven, even having a different /spawn point in the corresponding city. We could use the concept of citizenship to allow/disallow players to display the corresponding city's heraldic shield in their avatar. Alias suggests you do that by distributing the actual heraldic shields of your city amongst only your most trustworthy retainers and bannersmen. JeCel sees the problem of people giving those away to others or losing them accidentally - not to mention the case of a quarrel between former master and vassal resulting in the latter being banished from the city. That would imply having to ask them to return the given shields. I relate to JeCel's concerns here. A heraldic display system based on citizenship would eliminate all those problems altogether.

Chache commented

2023-09-11 22:32:29 +00:00

Stacking of heraldic elements:
It has been briefly suggested that heraldic design elements ("charges") could be stacked upon each other.

Although Alias seemed not very happy with the idea, he has nevertheless asked us to document it so it doesn't get lost.

Pros: it's both technically feasible (through the system of masks used by the mod) and historically accurate.
Con: as Alias points out, constricted to a 16x16-pixel square, there's not much room for stacking elements.

In case anyone doesn't get what we're talking about: right now, only one element ("charge") can be chosen, given a certain colour (from a list of standardised ones), and placed on a background (the "field") of another certain colour. That's all. All coats-of-arms in YourLand are made that way.

The suggestion is to be able to stack maybe a second element (not more) of a third different colour on top. For example, having a red field, placing a green X-shape (a "saltire") on top, and finally a white cross on top of all. (See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ikurrina for the resulting design.) I agree with Alias that many designs would be impractical due to low resolution, but the above example would be distinguishable, as would for instance a blue field with a red diagonal line ("bend") and a yellow lion rampant on top.

**Stacking of heraldic elements:** It has been briefly suggested that heraldic design elements ("charges") could be stacked upon each other. Although Alias seemed not very happy with the idea, he has nevertheless asked us to document it so it doesn't get lost. - Pros: it's both technically feasible (through the system of masks used by the mod) and historically accurate. - Con: as Alias points out, constricted to a 16x16-pixel square, there's not much room for stacking elements. In case anyone doesn't get what we're talking about: right now, only one element ("charge") can be chosen, given a certain colour (from a list of standardised ones), and placed on a background (the "field") of another certain colour. That's all. All coats-of-arms in YourLand are made that way. The suggestion is to be able to stack maybe a second element (not more) of a third different colour on top. For example, having a red field, placing a green X-shape (a "saltire") on top, and finally a white cross on top of all. (See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ikurrina for the resulting design.) I agree with Alias that many designs would be impractical due to low resolution, but the above example would be distinguishable, as would for instance a blue field with a red diagonal line ("bend") and a yellow lion rampant on top.

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Bla commented

2023-09-12 00:27:02 +00:00

Allowing players to scam others at pvp by hiding their shield isn´t a problem but players wielding a city´s coat of arms that they are no (longer) a part of is one, sounds pretty biased.
Allowing those scams will just lead to unnecessary work for Bailiff/Staff.
Giving city owners the option to control the appearance of another player seems like micromanaging and reminds me of TOS aka "no you didn´t buy that software just the option to use it".

6th armor slot

Using the last available slot for just a cosmetic change doesn´t seem like a good idea
afaik there have been plans (maybe still) to add amulets/rings/etc that give you bonuses. I think those got postponed till the classes or magic system. Not sure if 3d_armor can even handle an item that changes the appearance of another that might need a fork.

Why can´t they be normal shields? no pvp scam, no extra slot, no 3d_armor fork
Crafting recipe could be "coat of arms+wooden shield", as decorative shields they get the wooden shield stats with higher durability.
Sure downside would be you could only wield either your heraldic or defense shield.

Third color option

coat of arms and heraldic shields both represent the same city so they should look the same.

the 16x16 pixel space is the smaller problem here, stacking different elements can get costly quick.
16 background colors * 16 designs * 16 design colors = 4096 options
and thats around the current options coat of arms offers, if you want to add another layer for heraldic shields you gonna need to multiply again for the second design and the second design color.
Minetest offers texture modifiers to achieve such combinations but they are called texture modifiers for a reason.
Every combination ends up as a single texture that is send to the client, kept in RAM and saved to minetests cache.
With different options for coat of arms and heraldic shields thats already 2 textures per city.
Sure not all combinations will be used or every city will use 2 different ones but its something that needs to be considered especially cause minetest doesn´t automaticly clear its cache.

Allowing players to scam others at pvp by hiding their shield isn´t a problem but players wielding a city´s coat of arms that they are no (longer) a part of is one, sounds pretty biased. Allowing those scams will just lead to unnecessary work for Bailiff/Staff. Giving city owners the option to control the appearance of another player seems like micromanaging and reminds me of TOS aka "no you didn´t buy that software just the option to use it". ### 6th armor slot Using the last available slot for just a cosmetic change doesn´t seem like a good idea afaik there have been plans (maybe still) to add amulets/rings/etc that give you bonuses. I think those got postponed till the classes or magic system. Not sure if 3d_armor can even handle an item that changes the appearance of another that might need a fork. Why can´t they be normal shields? no pvp scam, no extra slot, no 3d_armor fork Crafting recipe could be "coat of arms+wooden shield", as decorative shields they get the wooden shield stats with higher durability. Sure downside would be you could only wield either your heraldic or defense shield. ### Third color option coat of arms and heraldic shields both represent the same city so they should look the same. the 16x16 pixel space is the smaller problem here, stacking different elements can get costly quick. `16 background colors * 16 designs * 16 design colors = 4096 options` and thats around the current options coat of arms offers, if you want to add another layer for heraldic shields you gonna need to multiply again for the second design and the second design color. Minetest offers texture modifiers to achieve such combinations but they are called texture modifiers for a reason. Every combination ends up as a single texture that is send to the client, kept in RAM and saved to minetests cache. With different options for coat of arms and heraldic shields thats already 2 textures per city. Sure not all combinations will be used or every city will use 2 different ones but its something that needs to be considered especially cause minetest doesn´t automaticly clear its cache.

Boot commented

2023-09-12 15:28:16 +00:00

So is it better to wait a little longer with the wishes for the coat of arms of Rubodyke?

AliasAlreadyTaken added the

4. step/discussion

label 2023-09-14 21:26:52 +00:00

flux commented

2023-11-01 00:09:27 +00:00

probably the easiest thing to do would be to just make castle shields equipable and give them iron shield stats.

i'm not sure how well 3d armor would handle a shield display "override", i'm guessing that without significantly modifying internal code, you'd end up w/ the two textures z-fighting or something similar.

some day, if i ever get around to re-doing armor (it's on my list), cosmetic override items are a planned feature.

probably the easiest thing to do would be to just make castle shields equipable and give them iron shield stats. i'm not sure how well 3d armor would handle a shield display "override", i'm guessing that without significantly modifying internal code, you'd end up w/ the two textures z-fighting or something similar. some day, if i ever get around to re-doing armor (it's on my list), cosmetic override items are a planned feature.

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