Sailship travel between cities #5131

New Issue

Chache · 2023-08-15T22:04:50Z

Chache commented

2023-08-15 22:04:50 +00:00

The situation:
Currently, if you want to travel from a city A to B, you need first to go from A to Haven's port; then from Haven's port to B. There is no direct travel.

The problem:
From the roleplaying/story point of view: that behaviour is utterly unrealistic. It might be acceptable if Haven is on the way between A and B, but that is rarely the case.

From the gameplaying/practical point of view: requires doble the amount of time for no reason, and makes the game load all nodes around Haven's port (which is close to the problematic Merchant District) unnecessarily.

The wrong solution:
Have all ports linked to all other ports. Every NPC should have the full list of other cities to sail to.

The reason behind:
If all NPCs contain a full list of cities to sail to, then every time we need to expand the list with a new port would be a nightmare. We'd need to go through all NPCs at the sailing cities (currently 19) and edit their dialogues one by one to add the new destination.

I am guessing that's precisely why the current policy: if only Haven has got the full destination list, then every time a new port is added only Marcus (the NPC at Haven) needs to have his dialogue options edited. The rest of the NPCs just point to Haven and need no edition.

The suggestion:
Make pairs of cities have the possibility of extra NPCs pointing to only each other. City A has the usual NPC pointing to Haven and a second NPC pointing directly to B. Reciprocal for B. If a new city C is added to the list, still only Marcus needs edition.

The balancing
How to avoid, then, that all pairs of cities start asking for these direct connection NPCs at the same time? Set a pre-requisite for this direct connection: each city must have a ship in the style of the other city, built at their harbour.

For example: if Maravillosa and Tenebris want to ask for direct sail travel, first there needs to be a Tenebrian cog at Maravillosa's harbour and a Maravillosan caravel at Tenebris (together with corresponding heraldic colours displayed, typical products from the target city as cargo... etc.)

This way an "interchange of ships" between cities (and shipbuilding in general) is fostered. The NPCs would of course, stand in the corresponding ship.

Also from the roleplaying point of view this would be perfectly on-point: if you're at Maravillosa and want to travel to Tenebris, instead of going to the same ship as always, you walk around the port until you see a ship with the colours of the Tenebrian flag, board it and ask to the sailor there to ferry you.

Let's hear your feedback.

**The situation:** Currently, if you want to travel from a city A to B, you need first to go from A to Haven's port; then from Haven's port to B. There is no direct travel. **The problem:** From the roleplaying/story point of view: that behaviour is utterly unrealistic. It might be acceptable if Haven is on the way between A and B, but that is rarely the case. From the gameplaying/practical point of view: requires doble the amount of time for no reason, and makes the game load all nodes around Haven's port (which is close to the problematic Merchant District) unnecessarily. **The wrong solution:** Have all ports linked to all other ports. Every NPC should have the full list of other cities to sail to. **The reason behind:** If all NPCs contain a full list of cities to sail to, then every time we need to expand the list with a new port would be a nightmare. We'd need to go through all NPCs at the sailing cities (currently 19) and edit their dialogues one by one to add the new destination. I am guessing that's precisely why the current policy: if only Haven has got the full destination list, then every time a new port is added only Marcus (the NPC at Haven) needs to have his dialogue options edited. The rest of the NPCs just point to Haven and need no edition. **The suggestion:** Make pairs of cities have the possibility of extra NPCs pointing to only each other. City A has the usual NPC pointing to Haven and a second NPC pointing directly to B. Reciprocal for B. If a new city C is added to the list, still only Marcus needs edition. **The balancing** How to avoid, then, that all pairs of cities start asking for these direct connection NPCs at the same time? Set a pre-requisite for this direct connection: each city must have a ship in the style of the other city, built at *their* harbour. For example: if Maravillosa and Tenebris want to ask for direct sail travel, first there needs to be a Tenebrian cog at Maravillosa's harbour and a Maravillosan caravel at Tenebris (together with corresponding heraldic colours displayed, typical products from the target city as cargo... etc.) This way an "interchange of ships" between cities (and shipbuilding in general) is fostered. The NPCs would of course, stand in the corresponding ship. Also from the roleplaying point of view this would be perfectly on-point: if you're at Maravillosa and want to travel to Tenebris, instead of going to the same ship as always, you walk around the port until you see a ship with the colours of the Tenebrian flag, board it and ask to the sailor there to ferry you. Let's hear your feedback.

👍 1

flux added the

1. kind/enhancement

1. kind/balancing

labels 2023-08-15 23:30:03 +00:00

Boot commented

2023-08-16 14:14:42 +00:00

The solution for the ship network should not be too different from the solution for the airship network.

👍 1

Chache commented

2023-08-17 16:14:19 +00:00

The solution for the ship network should not be too different from the solution for the airship network.

Of course, the same idea can be applied to airships.

> The solution for the ship network should not be too different from the solution for the airship network. Of course, the same idea can be applied to airships.

Boot commented

2023-08-18 12:23:41 +00:00

Or: first ship connection is over Haven, like it is, because the shipping line was ruled once from Haven into the world with contracts to local ferries.

For a second or even a third more direct ferry connection, both harbours should have a nice and extra ship for that and both should have a vote by the audience too.

Or: first ship connection is over Haven, like it is, because the shipping line was ruled once from Haven into the world with contracts to local ferries. For a second or even a third more direct ferry connection, both harbours should have a nice and extra ship for that and both should have a vote by the audience too.

👍 2

Chache commented

2023-08-20 21:59:19 +00:00

Yes, the idea is always so that the first connection to Haven remains at all times.

The audience vote prerequisite could be a good thing too.

Yes, the idea is always so that the first connection to Haven remains at all times. The audience vote prerequisite could be a good thing too.

AliasAlreadyTaken added this to the 1.2 Cities and Invasions milestone 2023-08-20 22:58:50 +00:00

AliasAlreadyTaken commented

2023-08-20 22:59:33 +00:00

Sounds like an "upgrade" to the harbour city service. Let's see whtehr it fits the plans for 1.2. cities

Sokomine commented

2023-08-21 12:10:34 +00:00

But...I want the NPC to have generic behaviour anyway. That way there could be (technicly!) one NPC who knows all locations and has all the dialogs - and all other sailors would just know that they're sailors (and of which city) and inherit those dialogs from the master sailer (=get them injected).

That's technicly possible. Takes a bit of time (not much) setting up once.

It'd also be possible to let the generic sailor send players to a meeting place on a sailship en route with nothing much around (=good load time) like the airship. Or in the future let the journey fail sometimes and let the player end up in the wrong place/on a ship attacked by pirates.

And of course that expansion idea with setting up direct connections between cities that work closely together is also a nice idea. That can technicly be done as well.

Turning the sailors into generic NPC is something that ought to happen soon anyway.

But...I want the NPC to have generic behaviour anyway. That way there could be (technicly!) *one* NPC who knows all locations and has all the dialogs - and all other sailors would just know that they're sailors (and of which city) and inherit those dialogs from the master sailer (=get them injected). That's technicly possible. Takes a bit of time (not much) setting up once. It'd also be possible to let the generic sailor send players to a meeting place on a sailship en route with nothing much around (=good load time) like the airship. Or in the future let the journey fail sometimes and let the player end up in the wrong place/on a ship attacked by pirates. And of course that expansion idea with setting up direct connections between cities that work closely together is also a nice idea. That can technicly be done as well. Turning the sailors into generic NPC is something that ought to happen soon anyway.

👍 1

Chache commented

2023-08-21 14:33:45 +00:00

I'm totally in for the idea that sometimes a sea travel can fail and end up in a shipwreck or in a pirate attack, I think it would add some spice to sea travel.

Additionally, and using the "drunk" status from the Wine mod, sea voyages could randomly make you seasick.

I'm totally in for the idea that sometimes a sea travel can fail and end up in a shipwreck or in a pirate attack, I think it would add some spice to sea travel. Additionally, and using the "drunk" status from the Wine mod, sea voyages could randomly make you seasick.

Sokomine commented

2023-08-23 18:24:18 +00:00

I've thought a bit about adding just limited destinations to some harbours. While it does sound like a good idear RPG- and decorative wise (may indicate which cities are aligned), during Voice attacks the name of the city alone didn't prove to be sufficient. Most players are not aware if something is on the airship or sailship line. If only a limited amount of targets is reachable from each habour (with Haven as a hub), that might increase confusion I'm afraid. On the other hand it could help a bit with those players who don't know how to scroll through the options the NPC presents.

flux commented

2023-08-24 03:09:11 +00:00

theoretically, we could attach players to a ship in a special part of the map (perhaps way above the normal map bounds), and make them "wait" until their ship lands. i don't think anyone wants that though, they want quicker transit, not more tedious transit.

theoretically, we could attach players to a ship in a special part of the map (perhaps way above the normal map bounds), and make them "wait" until their ship lands. i don't think *anyone* wants that though, they want quicker transit, not more tedious transit.

Boot commented

2023-08-24 14:13:26 +00:00

... during Voice attacks the name of the city alone didn't prove to be sufficient. Most players are not aware if something is on the airship or sailship line. If only a limited amount of targets is reachable from each habour (with Haven as a hub), that might increase confusion I'm afraid.

This is not an argument against direct ship connections, but rather an argument for the need to improve the announcements. At the latest, the second announcement should give clear instructions on how to get to the location of the attack even as a less experienced player.

> ... during Voice attacks the name of the city alone didn't prove to be sufficient. Most players are not aware if something is on the airship or sailship line. If only a limited amount of targets is reachable from each habour (with Haven as a hub), that might increase confusion I'm afraid. This is not an argument against direct ship connections, but rather an argument for the need to improve the announcements. At the latest, the second announcement should give clear instructions on how to get to the location of the attack even as a less experienced player.

Sokomine commented

2023-08-24 16:28:07 +00:00

When there's a Voice attack, there's seldom the time to type - let alone look up - a complex path..."No, Micros, you have to wait a bit!" consulting timetable of current shipments

When there's a Voice attack, there's seldom the time to type - let alone look up - a complex path..."No, Micros, you have to wait a bit!" *consulting timetable of current shipments*

Chache commented

2023-08-30 22:16:25 +00:00

Just to be clear: I'm not suggesting that the connection through Haven should be eliminated. I'm talking about extra direct connections between cities without removing the indirect connection through Haven.

flux commented

2023-10-29 23:57:46 +00:00

idea: if you want to sail from city A to city B, you can tell you that you want to go to city B, and they'll teleport you to a city C that's the closest to A in the direction of B. if C isn't B, you can talk to the sailor at C and do the next leg of the journey.

this would require code to automatically update all the sailors whenever new cities are added to the sailship network.

in practice, this also might not work particularly well. last i checked, cities are not randomly distributed, but tend to lie along the x=z axis, mostly in the +x/+z quadrant. i'm not sure what the distribution of just the sailship cities is tho.

idea: if you want to sail from city A to city B, you can tell you that you want to go to city B, and they'll teleport you to a city C that's the closest to A in the direction of B. if C isn't B, you can talk to the sailor at C and do the next leg of the journey. this would require code to automatically update all the sailors whenever new cities are added to the sailship network. in practice, this also might not work particularly well. last i checked, cities are not randomly distributed, but tend to lie along the x=z axis, mostly in the +x/+z quadrant. i'm not sure what the distribution of just the sailship cities is tho.

Sokomine commented

2023-10-30 14:03:43 +00:00

That routing still seems a bit complicated. People would not arrive at their destination and might be confused. But that might be handled by something like "Target town [next step: Tenebris]" or something like that.

NPC can provide generic dialogs. This is intended for something like city services. They'd just need to know that they'er a sailor, and in which town they live, and then hand off the rest to the generic NPC who knows all that's necessary. Easiest way would be to route from everywhere to everywhere. Doing so only to some places is more complicated.

That routing still seems a bit complicated. People would not arrive at their destination and might be confused. But that might be handled by something like "Target town [next step: Tenebris]" or something like that. NPC can provide generic dialogs. This is intended for something like city services. They'd just need to know that they'er a sailor, and in which town they live, and then hand off the rest to the generic NPC who knows all that's necessary. Easiest way would be to route from everywhere to everywhere. Doing so only to some places is more complicated.

Boot commented

2024-04-24 14:48:47 +00:00

I couldn't find a direct answer from Alias to tour #5009 (comment), but I also wish that caravans could somehow overcome a larger water obstacle, apart from bridges over rivers.

I see the answer to the caravan question in a ferry and would like to link this with Chache's request with the establishment of a direct ship connection.

Specifically, I am concerned with the connection Rubodyke - Finntown and back. Our urban planners, and even more so our lack of skilled workers, are very slow and therefore need a certain amount of lead time when it comes to planning for this. It would therefore be advantageous to have what could already be prepared for this purpose.

I couldn't find a direct answer from Alias to tour https://gitea.your-land.de/your-land/bugtracker/issues/5009#issuecomment-62021, but I also wish that caravans could somehow overcome a larger water obstacle, apart from bridges over rivers. I see the answer to the caravan question in a ferry and would like to link this with Chache's request with the establishment of a direct ship connection. Specifically, I am concerned with the connection Rubodyke - Finntown and back. Our urban planners, and even more so our lack of skilled workers, are very slow and therefore need a certain amount of lead time when it comes to planning for this. It would therefore be advantageous to have what could already be prepared for this purpose.

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