whysit reports: ocean is too safe at night... ... #4706

New Issue

yourland-report · 2023-06-06T21:02:39Z

yourland-report commented

2023-06-06 21:02:39 +00:00

whysit reports a bug:

ocean is too safe at night... no sharks, nothing.

Player position:

{
	x = 2997.0268554688,
	y = -1.2310000658035,
	z = -2443.7788085938
}

Player look:

{
	x = 0.24063013494015,
	y = -0.088720455765724,
	z = -0.96655356884003
}

Player information:

{
	max_rtt = 0.61199998855591,
	version_string = "5.4.1",
	formspec_version = 4,
	min_rtt = 0.041999999433756,
	avg_rtt = 0.046999998390675,
	min_jitter = 0,
	max_jitter = 0.56599998474121,
	protocol_version = 39,
	minor = 4,
	serialization_version = 28,
	patch = 1,
	lang_code = "",
	major = 5,
	state = "Active",
	connection_uptime = 3441,
	avg_jitter = 0.0010000020265579,
	ip_version = 6
}

Player meta:

{
	fields = {
		xp = "54",
		punch_count = "23",
		inflicted_damage = "112",
		yl_church = "return {[\"last_death_portal\"] = 1686084296, [\"last_death\"] = {[\"x\"] = 2548, [\"y\"] = 29, [\"z\"] = -1302}}",
		played_time = "11712",
		["stamina:level"] = "16",
		digged_nodes = "24",
		died = "2",
		yl_commons_player_created = "1684140806",
		yl_commons_player_joined = "1686081931",
		arenalib_infobox_arenaID = "0",
		repellant = "0",
		jointime = "1684140806",
		bitten = "0",
		hud_state = "on",
		["stamina:poisoned"] = "no",
		placed_nodes = "2",
		["stamina:exhaustion"] = "118",
		crafted = "32"
	}
}

Log identifier


[MOD] yl_report log identifier = nLHBV1yEZIlPY4fJuNakWmcXvSMD3kiT

Profiler save:

profile-20230606T210239.json_prettyEE

Status:

# Server: version: 5.7.0-yl-thx-tmm | game: Minetest Game | uptime: 5d 1h 9s | max lag: 0.929s | clients (28/52): AliasAlreadyTaken, Aliza, Allan, Apocralypse, Bailiff, Boot, Buzz, carrots1234, daydream, drgn, Empempires, flux, laira, N1cx, niceride, Oakenshield, Papi, rheo, Sandra, Service, set, shanish2, Sokomine, Sysmatic, whosit, whysit, XiuBloom, Yusukunai

Teleport command:

/teleport xyz 2997 -1 -2444

Compass command:

/give_compass Construction nLHBV1yEZIlPY4fJuNakWmcXvSMD3kiT D2691E 2997 -1 -2444

whysit reports a bug: > ocean is too safe at night... no sharks, nothing. Player position: ``` { x = 2997.0268554688, y = -1.2310000658035, z = -2443.7788085938 } ``` Player look: ``` { x = 0.24063013494015, y = -0.088720455765724, z = -0.96655356884003 } ``` Player information: ``` { max_rtt = 0.61199998855591, version_string = "5.4.1", formspec_version = 4, min_rtt = 0.041999999433756, avg_rtt = 0.046999998390675, min_jitter = 0, max_jitter = 0.56599998474121, protocol_version = 39, minor = 4, serialization_version = 28, patch = 1, lang_code = "", major = 5, state = "Active", connection_uptime = 3441, avg_jitter = 0.0010000020265579, ip_version = 6 } ``` Player meta: ``` { fields = { xp = "54", punch_count = "23", inflicted_damage = "112", yl_church = "return {[\"last_death_portal\"] = 1686084296, [\"last_death\"] = {[\"x\"] = 2548, [\"y\"] = 29, [\"z\"] = -1302}}", played_time = "11712", ["stamina:level"] = "16", digged_nodes = "24", died = "2", yl_commons_player_created = "1684140806", yl_commons_player_joined = "1686081931", arenalib_infobox_arenaID = "0", repellant = "0", jointime = "1684140806", bitten = "0", hud_state = "on", ["stamina:poisoned"] = "no", placed_nodes = "2", ["stamina:exhaustion"] = "118", crafted = "32" } } ``` Log identifier ``` [MOD] yl_report log identifier = nLHBV1yEZIlPY4fJuNakWmcXvSMD3kiT ``` Profiler save: ``` profile-20230606T210239.json_prettyEE ``` Status: ``` # Server: version: 5.7.0-yl-thx-tmm | game: Minetest Game | uptime: 5d 1h 9s | max lag: 0.929s | clients (28/52): AliasAlreadyTaken, Aliza, Allan, Apocralypse, Bailiff, Boot, Buzz, carrots1234, daydream, drgn, Empempires, flux, laira, N1cx, niceride, Oakenshield, Papi, rheo, Sandra, Service, set, shanish2, Sokomine, Sysmatic, whosit, whysit, XiuBloom, Yusukunai ``` Teleport command: ``` /teleport xyz 2997 -1 -2444 ``` Compass command: ``` /give_compass Construction nLHBV1yEZIlPY4fJuNakWmcXvSMD3kiT D2691E 2997 -1 -2444 ```

AliasAlreadyTaken was assigned by yourland-report

2023-06-06 21:02:39 +00:00

whosit added the

1. kind/enhancement

label 2023-06-06 21:29:56 +00:00

whosit commented

2023-06-06 21:58:19 +00:00

After some discussion with Sokomine:

Some players want world to be safer, some want more challenge.

This is probably not easy to retrofit, but imagine if Haven was safest place and further from it you travel, the more dangerous mobs and other obstacles would be. People who want safety could keep closer to the center, others could travel deeper and find challenge. So, like a gradient.

Maybe there could be more dangerous zones (I guess biomes? But biomes are kinda too small and random for this.) that players could avoid or, find challenge there. Right now it's dangerous to be in the desert because of scorpions and in the snow at night because of walkers... But you can still move quite a bit before you encounter them.
So my idea is making this more pronounced... And not just random - the deeper you go, the harder it should get.

Yeah, probably no way to retrofit it now with all the random builds and cities.

And I would fill the oceans with sharks and sea serpents... Or whatever. To at least force people to use boats or avoid swimming at night.

Those who seek challenge can go to the nether, but some more dangerous "regions" in the overworld could be interesting too.

And Sokomine does not agree btw :D Soko wants safety :) That's where the idea of geographical difficulty gradient comes from :P

After some discussion with Sokomine: Some players want world to be safer, some want more challenge. This is probably not easy to retrofit, but imagine if Haven was safest place and further from it you travel, the more dangerous mobs and other obstacles would be. People who want safety could keep closer to the center, others could travel deeper and find challenge. So, like a gradient. Maybe there could be more dangerous zones (I guess biomes? But biomes are kinda too small and random for this.) that players could avoid or, find challenge there. Right now it's dangerous to be in the desert because of scorpions and in the snow at night because of walkers... But you can still move quite a bit before you encounter them. So my idea is making this more pronounced... And not just random - the deeper you go, the harder it should get. Yeah, probably no way to retrofit it now with all the random builds and cities. And I would fill the oceans with sharks and sea serpents... Or whatever. To at least force people to use boats or avoid swimming at night. Those who seek challenge can go to the nether, but some more dangerous "regions" in the overworld could be interesting too. And Sokomine does not agree btw :D Soko wants safety :) That's where the idea of geographical difficulty gradient comes from :P

Boot commented

2023-06-06 22:23:43 +00:00

Safety mostly depends on your own concentrations and equipment. Experienced players have an advantage with both. If the world becomes more dangerous, new players in particular will die more often, for example in search of a new area for themselves.

Why should experienced players put themselves in such zones at all? The nyans on the surface have long since been found, you can get to other cities with the grids, raw materials are available in your own farms, from machines or in the (thanks to the relocation of the Balrogs) much less dangerous depths. So it will hit the newbies.

Experienced players, on the other hand, can expect exciting and dangerous quests or encounters with Voice.

Safety mostly depends on your own concentrations and equipment. Experienced players have an advantage with both. If the world becomes more dangerous, new players in particular will die more often, for example in search of a new area for themselves. Why should experienced players put themselves in such zones at all? The nyans on the surface have long since been found, you can get to other cities with the grids, raw materials are available in your own farms, from machines or in the (thanks to the relocation of the Balrogs) much less dangerous depths. So it will hit the newbies. Experienced players, on the other hand, can expect exciting and dangerous quests or encounters with Voice.

daydream commented

2023-06-06 22:38:12 +00:00

I don't want Haven to be the safest place... we already have issues getting players to spread out and use more of the world.

I'm not in favor of the ocean being more dangerous at night, but forcing boat use isn't too terrible of an idea I guess I wouldn't make too much of a fuss about it.

Exploring for advanced players might seem pretty boring but trust and believe to a newbie it's got more adventure and danger than they can possibly deal with. We must strive to keep both groups happy and entertained, and that is not easy - but making areas around cities safer while also making it impossible to settle near cities due to protection just makes a headache.

I don't want Haven to be the safest place... we already have issues getting players to spread out and use more of the world. I'm not in favor of the ocean being more dangerous at night, but forcing boat use isn't too terrible of an idea I guess I wouldn't make too much of a fuss about it. Exploring for advanced players might seem pretty boring but trust and believe to a newbie it's got more adventure and danger than they can possibly deal with. We must strive to keep both groups happy and entertained, and that is not easy - but making areas around cities safer while also making it impossible to settle near cities due to protection just makes a headache.

whosit commented

2023-06-06 22:45:26 +00:00

This issue was inspired by my experience traveling by foot from Haven to PdS. It was pretty uneventful. And I used a new alt acc without any armor even. (although, the person who inspired me on this adventure said they had trouble getting there).

Right now the world is pretty "flat" all around. If you want to travel from A to B you just move in a straight line. No mountains you can't climb, no giant ravines you need to walk around, oceans you can just safely swim over (no danger during night or day). ((there's no use for boats - there should be))

If the world was not just "more dangerous overall" but more "uneven", it would be more interesting. Someone with no experience would keep to roads and safer areas.

And you could motivate people fight the danger by giving them rewards - either as drops, or having something in the middle of those dangerous regions.

Another interesting mechanic would be if those "danger zones" would be dynamic:

Some region of the world becomes "corrupted" (by Voice?), terrain changes, dangerous mobs start spawning there. But then players could organize and fight this "corruption" in some way - clear the land and make it safe again. And until they clear it, everyone would need to avoid it.

This issue was inspired by my experience traveling by foot from Haven to PdS. It was pretty uneventful. And I used a new alt acc without any armor even. (although, the person who inspired me on this adventure said they had trouble getting there). Right now the world is pretty "flat" all around. If you want to travel from A to B you just move in a straight line. No mountains you can't climb, no giant ravines you need to walk around, oceans you can just safely swim over (no danger during night or day). ((there's no use for boats - there should be)) If the world was not just "more dangerous overall" but more "uneven", it would be more interesting. Someone with no experience would keep to roads and safer areas. And you could motivate people fight the danger by giving them rewards - either as drops, or having something in the middle of those dangerous regions. Another interesting mechanic would be if those "danger zones" would be dynamic: Some region of the world becomes "corrupted" (by Voice?), terrain changes, dangerous mobs start spawning there. But then players could organize and fight this "corruption" in some way - clear the land and make it safe again. And until they clear it, everyone would need to avoid it.

whosit commented

2023-06-06 22:57:01 +00:00

I guess I won't even argue - I agree with "keeping the balance" and being friendly for as wide spectrum of players as possible (I love visiting the awesome builds at YL, and most of the builders are not fighters it seems...).

That's why I said that retrofitting this seems very hard.

Just sharing my ideas, maybe it will inspire some other idea that will fit YL or somewhere else :)

I guess I won't even argue - I agree with "keeping the balance" and being friendly for as wide spectrum of players as possible (I love visiting the awesome builds at YL, and most of the builders are not fighters it seems...). That's why I said that retrofitting this seems very hard. Just sharing my ideas, maybe it will inspire some other idea that will fit YL or somewhere else :)

AzelfYL commented

2023-06-06 23:45:03 +00:00

Personally I'm against forcing players to use boats unless they're buffed, since boats are relatively slow compared to just running with crystal boots.

If boats were buffed to be faster ,then I wouldn't object.

Personally I'm against forcing players to use boats unless they're buffed, since boats are relatively slow compared to just running with crystal boots. If boats were buffed to be faster ,then I wouldn't object.

Sokomine commented

2023-06-07 02:45:56 +00:00

Whosit wrote:

No mountains you can't climb, no giant ravines you need to walk around, oceans you can just safely swim over

Noooo! We already have people funding cities in areas where too many players can't build in a way suitable to the terrain. Do you want to torture innocent players by having to see (and perhaps even try to rescue) even more such cities?

For many (not for all) players we need rather flat terrain. Because that's what they can more or less deal with.

Else plattforms of horror will haunt us!

Mobs annoying the player when the player wants to build are also a problem. Deserts and snow biomes are already a problem for newer players, and in part even for well equipped ones.

Whosit wrote: > No mountains you can't climb, no giant ravines you need to walk around, oceans you can just safely swim over Noooo! We already have people funding cities in areas where too many players *can't* build in a way suitable to the terrain. Do you want to torture innocent players by having to see (and perhaps even try to rescue) even more such cities? For many (not for all) players we need rather flat terrain. Because that's what they can more or less deal with. Else plattforms of horror will haunt us! Mobs annoying the player when the player wants to build are also a problem. Deserts and snow biomes are already a problem for newer players, and in part even for well equipped ones.

daydream commented

2023-06-07 03:42:07 +00:00

Deserts and snow biomes are definitely harder, just traveling thru a snow biome some night as a newbie and tell me that was easy... especially if you so much as stop to grab something to eat...

The fact that less happens if you keep moving is just how things are - so if NOTHING happens on a journey I submit that the journey was non-stop, which will make a LOT less spawn and happen in general. Keeping moving is a method to avoid trouble but you can find plenty if you stop or even walk instead of run, for instance.

IDK it's something to keep in mind but I have some doubts about making it harder... there's plenty hard to do in this game if you're looking for hard.

I did not know that sharks didn't come out at night - that is a bit strange, but then I don't know that much about sharks.

Deserts and snow biomes are definitely harder, just traveling thru a snow biome some night as a newbie and tell me that was easy... especially if you so much as stop to grab something to eat... The fact that less happens if you keep moving is just how things are - so if NOTHING happens on a journey I submit that the journey was non-stop, which will make a LOT less spawn and happen in general. Keeping moving is a method to avoid trouble but you can find plenty if you stop or even walk instead of run, for instance. IDK it's something to keep in mind but I have some doubts about making it harder... there's plenty hard to do in this game if you're looking for hard. I did not know that sharks didn't come out at night - that is a bit strange, but then I don't know that much about sharks.

sixer commented

2023-06-07 05:03:59 +00:00

Noooo! We already have people funding cities in areas where too many players can't build in a way suitable to the terrain. Do you want to torture innocent players by having to see (and perhaps even try to rescue) even more such cities?

Some people have problem building more than an ugly cobblebox on a flat terrain ... and other are able to build big constructions even in a place as dangerous as nether

Mobs annoying the player when the player wants to build are also a problem. Deserts and snow biomes are already a problem for newer players, and in part even for well equipped ones.

True. Scorpions can be very overwhelming - even with good equipment you are often forced to retreat

If boats were buffed to be faster ,then I wouldn't object.

Some kind of crystal boat that would give slightly higher speed than crystal boots over sea?

> Noooo! We already have people funding cities in areas where too many players *can't* build in a way suitable to the terrain. Do you want to torture innocent players by having to see (and perhaps even try to rescue) even more such cities? Some people have problem building more than an ugly cobblebox on a flat terrain ... and other are able to build big constructions even in a place as dangerous as nether > Mobs annoying the player when the player wants to build are also a problem. Deserts and snow biomes are already a problem for newer players, and in part even for well equipped ones. True. Scorpions can be very overwhelming - even with good equipment you are often forced to retreat > If boats were buffed to be faster ,then I wouldn't object. Some kind of crystal boat that would give slightly higher speed than crystal boots over sea?

laylem commented

2023-06-08 11:27:19 +00:00

Some kind of crystal boat that would give slightly higher speed than crystal boots over sea?

Silly idea:
Boa-ots:
Boots crafted from two boats, one for each foot. Unfortunately you walk like a boat out of water too :P

This issue was inspired by my experience traveling by foot from Haven to PdS. It was pretty uneventful. And I used a new alt acc without any armor even. (although, the person who inspired me on this adventure said they had trouble getting there).

Right now the world is pretty "flat" all around. If you want to travel from A to B you just move in a straight line. No mountains you can't climb, no giant ravines you need to walk around, oceans you can just safely swim over (no danger during night or day). ((there's no use for boats - there should be))

If the world was not just "more dangerous overall" but more "uneven", it would be more interesting. Someone with no experience would keep to roads and safer areas.

I was walking around with an alt for several km to reach a location in the wild, and with no crystal boots and nothing but patience, I could cross mountains by looking for a nearby less-steep route, skip ravines by going around them, etc. But you can imagine a new player playing if there was no way around these by exaggerating the terrain. That's right, they will leave wooden/cobble pillars and bridges everywhere.

I think there is no good way to have a "geographic difficulty gradient", rather I think a "mob difficulty gradient" would be easier to implement. Perhaps we have a certain flavour of this in scorpion deserts and snow walker ice sheets already.

The question then is what areas do we want higher difficulty mobs to appear? whosit suggested geographical distance from Haven... That sounds terrible if you live in one of the more outboard cities... Unless there is some sort of "magical mob suppression" around cities, or even available to players to put on their builds for "business as usual".

What would faster vehicles look like? I think people were concerned about the lag visual effect, but boats, minecarts etc. are just not competitive compared to crystal boots save in very hilly terrain.

In real life cities are built according to geography. Flat plains, near rivers are a favourite. Exceptions are usually because of some tourism or other specialized industry... In YL we have no such constraint of geography. Blocks float! Maybe it is unrealistic to expect people to conform to geography when different rules are operating.

Challenge... the perpetual argument.
The issue is there is a spectrum of expectations. How do you delineate levels of challenge? And many new players love to jump in the nether. They don't even have an idea of what challenge they will face. This is where whosit's idea of geographical distance shines, a linear challenge increase the farther you go. It forces players to meet the cumulative challenge to get to the next level. Unfortunately this is best done on a blank slate server. If we propose some sort of "mob suppression" item/block, similar to area protection but just for keeping out hostile mobs, it allows players to have challenge if they want, and if they don't like they can turn it off for their house... But it's not an opt-out thing, you have to place down the mob suppression yourself, and you have a limited amount.

That's the best thing I can think of right now, by default increase difficulty of mobs, but give a way out for a limited space per player. Safe players can apply the mob suppression to focus on building, and people who want to swim with sharks can just not do so?

> Some kind of crystal boat that would give slightly higher speed than crystal boots over sea? Silly idea: Boa-ots: Boots crafted from two boats, one for each foot. Unfortunately you walk like a boat out of water too :P >This issue was inspired by my experience traveling by foot from Haven to PdS. It was pretty uneventful. And I used a new alt acc without any armor even. (although, the person who inspired me on this adventure said they had trouble getting there). >Right now the world is pretty "flat" all around. If you want to travel from A to B you just move in a straight line. No mountains you can't climb, no giant ravines you need to walk around, oceans you can just safely swim over (no danger during night or day). ((there's no use for boats - there should be)) >If the world was not just "more dangerous overall" but more "uneven", it would be more interesting. Someone with no experience would keep to roads and safer areas. I was walking around with an alt for several km to reach a location in the wild, and with no crystal boots and nothing but patience, I could cross mountains by looking for a nearby less-steep route, skip ravines by going around them, etc. But you can imagine a new player playing if there was no way around these by exaggerating the terrain. That's right, they will leave wooden/cobble pillars and bridges everywhere. I think there is no good way to have a "geographic difficulty gradient", rather I think a "mob difficulty gradient" would be easier to implement. Perhaps we have a certain flavour of this in scorpion deserts and snow walker ice sheets already. The question then is what areas do we want higher difficulty mobs to appear? whosit suggested geographical distance from Haven... That sounds terrible if you live in one of the more outboard cities... Unless there is some sort of "magical mob suppression" around cities, or even available to players to put on their builds for "business as usual". --- What would faster vehicles look like? I think people were concerned about the lag visual effect, but boats, minecarts etc. are just not competitive compared to crystal boots save in very hilly terrain. --- In real life cities are built according to geography. Flat plains, near rivers are a favourite. Exceptions are usually because of some tourism or other specialized industry... In YL we have no such constraint of geography. Blocks float! Maybe it is unrealistic to expect people to conform to geography when different rules are operating. --- Challenge... the perpetual argument. The issue is there is a spectrum of expectations. How do you delineate levels of challenge? And many new players love to jump in the nether. They don't even have an idea of what challenge they will face. This is where whosit's idea of geographical distance shines, a linear challenge increase the farther you go. It forces players to meet the cumulative challenge to get to the next level. Unfortunately this is best done on a blank slate server. If we propose some sort of "mob suppression" item/block, similar to area protection but just for keeping out hostile mobs, it allows players to have challenge if they want, and if they don't like they can turn it off for their house... But it's not an opt-out thing, you have to place down the mob suppression yourself, and you have a limited amount. That's the best thing I can think of right now, by default increase difficulty of mobs, but give a way out for a limited space per player. Safe players can apply the mob suppression to focus on building, and people who want to swim with sharks can just not do so?

whosit commented

2023-06-08 12:08:53 +00:00

Responding to Laylem:

By "geographical gradient" I meant the difficulty should depend in some way on x/y(/z?) coords. Not really talking about terrain :)

If terrain is too extreme, it will force players to build ad-hoc bridges and pillars, which will be a problem. That's a good point against it. (But good builders will also probably build some good stuff using terrain too.)

Laylem:

The question then is what areas do we want higher difficulty mobs to appear?

Idk how much of 60kX60k land is unexplored. Maybe it's possible to create some "epicenters" of danger somewere where it's not even generated yet? Also see the "corruption" idea in previous comments...
I agree with "hard to add to an existing server" part.

Responding to Laylem: By "geographical gradient" I meant the difficulty should depend in some way on x/y(/z?) coords. Not really talking about terrain :) If terrain is too extreme, it will force players to build ad-hoc bridges and pillars, which will be a problem. That's a good point against it. (But good builders will also probably build some good stuff using terrain too.) Laylem: > The question then is what areas do we want higher difficulty mobs to appear? Idk how much of 60kX60k land is unexplored. Maybe it's possible to create some "epicenters" of danger somewere where it's not even generated yet? Also see the "corruption" idea in previous comments... I agree with "hard to add to an existing server" part.

Boot commented

2023-06-08 13:46:52 +00:00

Maybe a city once taken over by Voice can get a more dangerous ring of mobs around it? I think the updates will turn the server and the previous game upside down for many anyway.

👍 1

sixer commented

2023-06-08 16:24:15 +00:00

Has such takeover happened in the past?

Well, game can be made more interesting by (randomly) creating voice bases hidden in the wilderness that will spawn dangerous mobs ... with option to take them over or destroying them ... for which a coordinated effort of many players may be needed. Perhaps the base size can vary and the smallest one could be conquerable by lone player, if he is well equipped and highly skilled.

Has such takeover happened in the past? Well, game can be made more interesting by (randomly) creating voice bases hidden in the wilderness that will spawn dangerous mobs ... with option to take them over or destroying them ... for which a coordinated effort of many players may be needed. Perhaps the base size can vary and the smallest one could be conquerable by lone player, if he is well equipped and highly skilled.

sixer commented

2023-06-08 16:26:28 +00:00

And regarding ocean safety ... deep oceans are dark, light does not penetrate the depth. So they should be equally safe (or equally dangerous) regardless of day time

whosit commented

2023-06-08 16:44:33 +00:00

And regarding ocean safety ... deep oceans are dark, light does not penetrate the depth. So they should be equally safe (or equally dangerous) regardless of day time

Realism is not a priority if gameplay can be made more interesting. At least on land the rule "day is safe; at night - seek shelter" kinda works. But you can just escape into the sea...

> And regarding ocean safety ... deep oceans are dark, light does not penetrate the depth. So they should be equally safe (or equally dangerous) regardless of day time Realism is not a priority if gameplay can be made more interesting. At least on land the rule "day is safe; at night - seek shelter" kinda works. But you can just escape into the sea...

flux commented

2023-06-08 20:41:18 +00:00