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Dirac reports: Balrog spawning idea: feeding ... #4469

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opened 2023-05-12 07:26:09 +00:00 by yourland-report · 15 comments
yourland-report commented 2023-05-12 07:26:09 +00:00
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Dirac reports a bug:

Balrog spawning idea: feeding a lava orb to a dungeon master statue has a 1% chance tospawn a balrog

Player position:

{
	z = 1926.0500488281,
	x = 1966.7858886719,
	y = 69.5
}

Player look:

{
	z = -0.98460680246353,
	x = 0.14838150143623,
	y = -0.092370592057705
}

Player information:

{
	formspec_version = 6,
	state = "Active",
	lang_code = "",
	minor = 6,
	major = 5,
	version_string = "5.6.1",
	ip_version = 6,
	min_rtt = 0.16400000452995,
	avg_rtt = 0.17800000309944,
	max_jitter = 2.8699998855591,
	avg_jitter = 0,
	connection_uptime = 2736,
	serialization_version = 29,
	protocol_version = 41,
	max_rtt = 3.0429999828339,
	min_jitter = 0,
	patch = 1
}

Player meta:

{
	fields = {
		yl_commons_player_created = "1644856923",
		yl_commons_player_joined = "1683873674",
		hud_state = "on",
		yl_commons_thankyou = "11",
		jointime = "1644856923",
		["stamina:level"] = "18",
		["stamina:poisoned"] = "no",
		["stamina:exhaustion"] = "1.5",
		xp = "142416",
		["signslib:pos"] = "(1971,29580,1543)",
		["unified_inventory:bags"] = "return {\"unified_inventory:bag_large\", \"unified_inventory:bag_large\", \"unified_inventory:bag_large\", \"unified_inventory:bag_large\"}",
		played_time = "1322220",
		digged_nodes = "135734",
		placed_nodes = "47262",
		died = "44",
		crafted = "35400",
		yl_unified_trash_review = "return {\"vessels:glass_bottle 2\", \"default:stick 3\", \"vessels:glass_bottle 4\", \"vessels:glass_bottle 7\"}",
		repellant = "0",
		yl_church = "return {[\"last_death\"] = {[\"z\"] = 1580, [\"x\"] = 1842, [\"y\"] = 29767}, [\"last_death_portal\"] = 1683858854, [\"last_heal\"] = 1683670724}",
		punch_count = "10652",
		arenalib_infobox_arenaID = "0",
		partychat = "party",
		["3d_armor_inventory"] = "return {\"shields:shield_rainbow 1 12400\", \"3d_armor:helmet_crystal 1 24540\", \"3d_armor:boots_crystal 1 24540\", \"3d_armor:leggings_crystal 1 24540\", \"3d_armor:chestplate_crystal 1 24540\", \"\"}",
		inflicted_damage = "229330",
		bitten = "0"
	}
}

Log identifier


[MOD] yl_report log identifier = y6kJOvTDI2dhjtxYLC5J1pc07E8csXDY

Profiler save:

profile-20230512T072609.json_prettyEE

Status:

# Server: version: 5.6.1-yl | game: Minetest Game | uptime: 6h 8min 40s | max lag: 0.274s | clients (16/52): 9T9, AliasAlreadyTaken, Alinia, Aniana, Apocralypse, Azelf, bizon, bomberman, daydream, Dirac, Flippster, HorusDamocles, Julia, McDunbeag, Naan, Service

Teleport command:

/teleport xyz 1967 70 1926

Compass command:

/give_compass Construction y6kJOvTDI2dhjtxYLC5J1pc07E8csXDY D2691E 1967 70 1926
Dirac reports a bug: > Balrog spawning idea: feeding a lava orb to a dungeon master statue has a 1% chance tospawn a balrog Player position: ``` { z = 1926.0500488281, x = 1966.7858886719, y = 69.5 } ``` Player look: ``` { z = -0.98460680246353, x = 0.14838150143623, y = -0.092370592057705 } ``` Player information: ``` { formspec_version = 6, state = "Active", lang_code = "", minor = 6, major = 5, version_string = "5.6.1", ip_version = 6, min_rtt = 0.16400000452995, avg_rtt = 0.17800000309944, max_jitter = 2.8699998855591, avg_jitter = 0, connection_uptime = 2736, serialization_version = 29, protocol_version = 41, max_rtt = 3.0429999828339, min_jitter = 0, patch = 1 } ``` Player meta: ``` { fields = { yl_commons_player_created = "1644856923", yl_commons_player_joined = "1683873674", hud_state = "on", yl_commons_thankyou = "11", jointime = "1644856923", ["stamina:level"] = "18", ["stamina:poisoned"] = "no", ["stamina:exhaustion"] = "1.5", xp = "142416", ["signslib:pos"] = "(1971,29580,1543)", ["unified_inventory:bags"] = "return {\"unified_inventory:bag_large\", \"unified_inventory:bag_large\", \"unified_inventory:bag_large\", \"unified_inventory:bag_large\"}", played_time = "1322220", digged_nodes = "135734", placed_nodes = "47262", died = "44", crafted = "35400", yl_unified_trash_review = "return {\"vessels:glass_bottle 2\", \"default:stick 3\", \"vessels:glass_bottle 4\", \"vessels:glass_bottle 7\"}", repellant = "0", yl_church = "return {[\"last_death\"] = {[\"z\"] = 1580, [\"x\"] = 1842, [\"y\"] = 29767}, [\"last_death_portal\"] = 1683858854, [\"last_heal\"] = 1683670724}", punch_count = "10652", arenalib_infobox_arenaID = "0", partychat = "party", ["3d_armor_inventory"] = "return {\"shields:shield_rainbow 1 12400\", \"3d_armor:helmet_crystal 1 24540\", \"3d_armor:boots_crystal 1 24540\", \"3d_armor:leggings_crystal 1 24540\", \"3d_armor:chestplate_crystal 1 24540\", \"\"}", inflicted_damage = "229330", bitten = "0" } } ``` Log identifier ``` [MOD] yl_report log identifier = y6kJOvTDI2dhjtxYLC5J1pc07E8csXDY ``` Profiler save: ``` profile-20230512T072609.json_prettyEE ``` Status: ``` # Server: version: 5.6.1-yl | game: Minetest Game | uptime: 6h 8min 40s | max lag: 0.274s | clients (16/52): 9T9, AliasAlreadyTaken, Alinia, Aniana, Apocralypse, Azelf, bizon, bomberman, daydream, Dirac, Flippster, HorusDamocles, Julia, McDunbeag, Naan, Service ``` Teleport command: ``` /teleport xyz 1967 70 1926 ``` Compass command: ``` /give_compass Construction y6kJOvTDI2dhjtxYLC5J1pc07E8csXDY D2691E 1967 70 1926 ```
AliasAlreadyTaken was assigned by yourland-report 2023-05-12 07:26:09 +00:00
AzelfYL commented 2023-05-12 10:26:02 +00:00
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I'm down for this idea for a sort of dungeon that plays out like the Portal Keeper Quest. In terms of normal use however? Absolutely not. There are just too many variables and methods you could use this to grief people. For example: What if you deployed this thing in the closest unprotected area near a city or next to someone's underground base? It would just kill people over and over again until a bunch of players went ahead and killed it.

I'm down for this idea for a sort of dungeon that plays out like the Portal Keeper Quest. In terms of normal use however? Absolutely not. There are just too many variables and methods you could use this to grief people. For example: What if you deployed this thing in the closest unprotected area near a city or next to someone's underground base? It would just kill people over and over again until a bunch of players went ahead and killed it.
👍 1
AliasAlreadyTaken added the
1. kind/enhancement
1. kind/balancing
 labels 2023-05-12 11:24:47 +00:00
Sokomine commented 2023-05-12 17:09:46 +00:00
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The idea of getting more balrogs sounds good. Their whip is the best weapon on the server, and it takes about 100 balrogs to get one. So while I personally don't like these monsters at all (unless they're peaceful and behave of course!), other players have a much higher need of them (on average 100 balrogs/advanced player). A price of 1 orb for an 1% chance would be too expensive. And they're certainly not wanted in the overworld. Perhaps there can be another way of getting them?

The idea of getting more balrogs sounds good. Their whip is the best weapon on the server, and it takes about 100 balrogs to get one. So while I personally don't like these monsters at all (unless they're peaceful and behave of course!), other players have a much higher need of them (on average 100 balrogs/advanced player). A price of 1 orb for an 1% chance would be too expensive. And they're certainly not wanted in the overworld. Perhaps there can be another way of getting them?
whosit commented 2023-05-12 17:23:48 +00:00
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Since they live underground, maybe there could be some sort of consumable "balrog lure" item that you can use below some y-level and "attract" one.

Since they live underground, maybe there could be some sort of consumable "balrog lure" item that you can use below some y-level and "attract" one.
sixer commented 2023-05-12 18:43:03 +00:00
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If that item would be usable only in places where balrogs spawn naturally (nether or below -18k), then its usefulness for griefing would be fairly limited. Some extra conditions (min. distance from any protected area 150?) can be added to eliminate griefing potential completely.

Making such item would be easy, but making it balanced would be hard.

I think it could have a different form, or even work for monsters in general, not just balrog. It could be one-time usable item, or it could be a usable/wieldable "lure" item that would either get some chance of spawning more monsters an/or causing existing monsters from wide area around you to go and attack you when used/held/worn.

If that item would be usable only in places where balrogs spawn naturally (nether or below -18k), then its usefulness for griefing would be fairly limited. Some extra conditions (min. distance from any protected area 150?) can be added to eliminate griefing potential completely. Making such item would be easy, but making it balanced would be hard. I think it could have a different form, or even work for monsters in general, not just balrog. It could be one-time usable item, or it could be a usable/wieldable "lure" item that would either get some chance of spawning more monsters an/or causing existing monsters from wide area around you to go and attack you when used/held/worn.
flux commented 2023-05-12 18:51:49 +00:00
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limiting the action of a player-initiated spawning mechanism to locations where balrogs already spawn is pretty trivial. i'm not sure about the general idea of it though.

limiting the action of a player-initiated spawning mechanism to locations where balrogs already spawn is pretty trivial. i'm not sure about the general idea of it though.
AliasAlreadyTaken commented 2023-05-13 07:30:55 +00:00
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"Creating" balrogs from Dungeon master statues is a nice idea, but a clear balancing no.

A balrog lure? Sure, a couple of hobbits and an elderly wizzard would suffice? Needs balancing as well, up to a point where cost and time equal effect.

"Creating" balrogs from Dungeon master statues is a nice idea, but a clear balancing no. A balrog lure? Sure, a couple of hobbits and an elderly wizzard would suffice? Needs balancing as well, up to a point where cost and time equal effect.
Dirac commented 2023-05-15 20:56:23 +00:00
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I agree that any mechanism shouldn't spawn balrogs outside of their normal spawn areas.

In terms of balancing, I was thinking that a high expected cost would be OK. e.g. in this case, the expected number of lava orbs needed to obtain a balrog whip would be 10000. This also would create an interesting sink for lava orbs.

I agree that any mechanism shouldn't spawn balrogs outside of their normal spawn areas. In terms of balancing, I was thinking that a high expected cost would be OK. e.g. in this case, the expected number of lava orbs needed to obtain a balrog whip would be 10000. This also would create an interesting sink for lava orbs.
flux commented 2023-05-16 16:22:12 +00:00
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people have lava orb farms. while 10k would be quite a lot, i wonder how quickly they could produce that.

people have lava orb farms. while 10k would be quite a lot, i wonder how quickly they could produce that.
AliasAlreadyTaken commented 2023-05-16 17:59:44 +00:00
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As soon as there's an incentive to produce something, people will upscale their farms to produce it.

As soon as there's an incentive to produce something, people will upscale their farms to produce it.
flux commented 2023-05-16 19:51:54 +00:00
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i've seen farms that're already pretty maximal

i've seen farms that're already pretty maximal
sixer commented 2023-05-16 21:32:19 +00:00
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Can lava orb farms be automated? I think the chokepoint is still that you need to kill the flans that spawn, so over some size it does not make sense to make the farm any bigger. And with the low orb drop rate, you'd need to kill around 1 million flans to lure a balrog?

Can lava orb farms be automated? I think the chokepoint is still that you need to kill the flans that spawn, so over some size it does not make sense to make the farm any bigger. And with the low orb drop rate, you'd need to kill around 1 million flans to lure a balrog?
flux commented 2023-05-17 00:01:03 +00:00
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Can lava orb farms be automated

yes

1 million flans

more like 250000. w/ the setup i'm aware of, that would take around 10000 hours, which is not particularly practical...

> Can lava orb farms be automated yes > 1 million flans more like 250000. w/ the setup i'm aware of, that would take around 10000 hours, which is not particularly practical...
Dirac commented 2023-05-19 21:33:59 +00:00
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Regarding the drop rates: these can be tuned for balance. I think we could take the lava orb output of a theoretically maximized lava orb farm, and scale the expected number of orbs per whip based on that. For example, we could set the expected orbs per whip to be equivalent to a full month's worth of orbs produced by a maxed out orb farm.

I think that it's important to consider the community event potential of this idea. If one has a large orb farm, they can host balrog parties. This could add an unstructured, fun, high-level group activity to the game.

Regarding the drop rates: these can be tuned for balance. I think we could take the lava orb output of a theoretically maximized lava orb farm, and scale the expected number of orbs per whip based on that. For example, we could set the expected orbs per whip to be equivalent to a full month's worth of orbs produced by a maxed out orb farm. I think that it's important to consider the community event potential of this idea. If one has a large orb farm, they can host balrog parties. This could add an unstructured, fun, high-level group activity to the game.
flux commented 2023-05-20 01:42:43 +00:00
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these can be tuned for balance.

you're presuming that the difficulty in getting a whip isn't already intentionally balanced. it's meant to be nearly impossible. balrog farms were removed exactly for this reason - making a balrog "proxy" farm negates that.

> these can be tuned for balance. you're presuming that the difficulty in getting a whip isn't already intentionally balanced. it's meant to be nearly impossible. balrog farms were removed exactly for this reason - making a balrog "proxy" farm negates that.
AliasAlreadyTaken commented 2024-01-17 15:53:43 +00:00
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Like #6000 : "For balancing reasons we can't make a Balrog magnet without serious downsides ;)"

Like #6000 : "For balancing reasons we can't make a Balrog magnet without serious downsides ;)"
AliasAlreadyTaken added the
5. result/wontfix
 label 2024-01-17 15:53:49 +00:00
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