150 node limit around protected area - change suggestion #4331

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opened 2023-04-28 18:33:30 +00:00 by sixer · 15 comments

Currently, there is 150 node limit around protected area (300 for cities) where you are not supposed to build without invitation/permission. While this can be handy if you plan to expand your house/base to have more room, this has several flaws/drawbacks:

  • It is not enforced technically (although I admit I have not tried to push the limits here, like making my protected areas right next to someone else and walling him off completely), but only by staff decision (I've just heard rumors that people's builds were removed completely for violating this rule, so I am not actually sure how exactly this works in reality)
  • If you reserve some spot for you in the wild, this feature may actually prevent you from expanding - if new people settle nearby (likely just barely behind the 150 nodes range, as people would tend to pick first suitable spot closest to city/airport/shipyard/whatever) and you extend your base with a new area, that new area would be violating their space.
  • If people become inactive, the area protection still stays and it is impossible to ask for permissions (you can actually ask, but you'll never get any response)

There is no way to voluntarily lower that limit for your areas:

  • For some kind of builds, i.e. if you build a road, bridge, hellevator or similar structure meant primarily for transport, you may rather want to not limit people settling nearby and you may wish to allow people settling with their areas possibly even directly touching the road area.

Some suggestions to limit the impact of this issue:

  • Allow reducing this proximity protection for your area, so people could build nearby without having to ask for explicit permit
  • Require some activity or explicit effort to set up this reservation, so people will think if they need it or not: setting it could require either extra command, where you have to explicitly say how many nodes you wish to reserve (150 max), or possibly could even cost you (costing 1 masterarea limit ?)
    You could be even able to specify non-even area extension (like reserve 150 nodes to north, but only 50 nodes to south, as the landscape is unsuitable for your extension plans in that direction) or possibly some limited reservation (50 nodes?) could be done for free (without costing you or having to use extra commands)
  • Reduce/remove this protection for inactive accounts (for example reduce to 80 nodes after 45 days of not logging and 10 nodes after 90 days of not logging), somewhat similar mechanism where you can lose your plot in a city after month of absence.
    Although here the core protection of your build still remains, you just lose reservation for a space to expand.
Currently, there is 150 node limit around protected area (300 for cities) where you are not supposed to build without invitation/permission. While this can be handy if you plan to expand your house/base to have more room, this has several flaws/drawbacks: * It is not enforced technically (although I admit I have not tried to push the limits here, like making my protected areas right next to someone else and walling him off completely), but only by staff decision (I've just heard rumors that people's builds were removed completely for violating this rule, so I am not actually sure how exactly this works in reality) * If you reserve some spot for you in the wild, this feature may actually prevent you from expanding - if new people settle nearby (likely just barely behind the 150 nodes range, as people would tend to pick first suitable spot closest to city/airport/shipyard/whatever) and you extend your base with a new area, that new area would be violating their space. * If people become inactive, the area protection still stays and it is impossible to ask for permissions (you can actually ask, but you'll never get any response) There is no way to voluntarily lower that limit for your areas: * For some kind of builds, i.e. if you build a road, bridge, hellevator or similar structure meant primarily for transport, you may rather want to not limit people settling nearby and you may wish to allow people settling with their areas possibly even directly touching the road area. Some suggestions to limit the impact of this issue: * Allow reducing this proximity protection for your area, so people could build nearby without having to ask for explicit permit * Require some activity or explicit effort to set up this reservation, so people will think if they need it or not: setting it could require either extra command, where you have to explicitly say how many nodes you wish to reserve (150 max), or possibly could even cost you (costing 1 masterarea limit ?) You could be even able to specify non-even area extension (like reserve 150 nodes to north, but only 50 nodes to south, as the landscape is unsuitable for your extension plans in that direction) or possibly some limited reservation (50 nodes?) could be done for free (without costing you or having to use extra commands) * Reduce/remove this protection for inactive accounts (for example reduce to 80 nodes after 45 days of not logging and 10 nodes after 90 days of not logging), somewhat similar mechanism where you can lose your plot in a city after month of absence. Although here the core protection of your build still remains, you just lose reservation for a space to expand.
AliasAlreadyTaken added the
1. kind/enhancement
label 2023-04-28 19:06:24 +00:00
Member

Please remember: this server has a surface of 65k x 65k.

Please remember: this server has a surface of 65k x 65k.
Author

True, but no (or very limited) teleportation, so there is motivation to have settlement near other infrastructure (shops, cities, mines, ...)

Especially for newbies who typically does not have crystal boots or enough food for longer sprinting and walk fairly slowly ....

True, but no (or very limited) teleportation, so there is motivation to have settlement near other infrastructure (shops, cities, mines, ...) Especially for newbies who typically does not have crystal boots or enough food for longer sprinting and walk fairly slowly ....
  • This is a survival server. Some level of initial difficulty is expected.
  • Food is obtainable via public farms at Haven and other cities.
  • There are 12 destinations on the airship network (I'm discounting Haven and GeG) and 18 destinations on sailship (discounted for Haven and Atlantis) = total 30 viable destinations. And at least some (I checked 2 sailship cities and a single airship destination) are free on their outskirts. Yes, it takes a bit of searching to settle close, but you can always settle further away
  • Once settled, you have /home and /spawn, which is all the personal teleportation you need for easy access to and from cities.
  • For newbies, there's an option to get a plot in cities (Citites! Not only Haven).
  • Catapult destination is changed time to time
* This is a survival server. Some level of initial difficulty is expected. * Food is obtainable via public farms at Haven and other cities. * There are 12 destinations on the airship network (I'm discounting Haven and GeG) and 18 destinations on sailship (discounted for Haven and Atlantis) = total 30 viable destinations. And at least some (I checked 2 sailship cities and a single airship destination) are free on their outskirts. Yes, it takes a bit of searching to settle close, but you can always settle further away * Once settled, you have /home and /spawn, which is all the personal teleportation you need for easy access to and from cities. * For newbies, there's an option to get a plot in cities (Citites! Not only Haven). * Catapult destination is changed time to time
Author

Yes, when I arrived for first time and decided to take a plot in wilderness, from time I found a suitable plot (but that was too close to somebody) to time I found another suitable conforming to this limit, it took few extra hours, deaths and kilometers walked. This adds a "bureaucratic" difficulty, not survival difficulty.

What is catapult and how it works?
Maybe that thing should be more visible for newbies ...

Yes, when I arrived for first time and decided to take a plot in wilderness, from time I found a suitable plot (but that was too close to somebody) to time I found another suitable conforming to this limit, it took few extra hours, deaths and kilometers walked. This adds a "bureaucratic" difficulty, not survival difficulty. What is catapult and how it works? Maybe that thing should be more visible for newbies ...

Some of the issues will be addressed with a near future update to the areas:

  • Creating areas too close to another or to cities will not work anymore. It will fail with an error message.

  • Area owners will be able to disable the distance rule for their area. Default will be "no other areas allowed within 150 blocks". To create a new area, ALL conditions must be met. If there are seven areas too close to the new one, all seven of those areas need to have the distance checking disabled, if only six disabled it and one has it enabled, the new area cannot be created.

  • This also solves the issue when people are gone for longer: You cannot build near them.

  • "Distance reduction over time" and "lowering distance rules to a chosen value" sound interesting, we'll consider those.

Some of the issues will be addressed with a near future update to the areas: - Creating areas too close to another or to cities will not work anymore. It will fail with an error message. - Area owners will be able to disable the distance rule for their area. Default will be "no other areas allowed within 150 blocks". To create a new area, ALL conditions must be met. If there are seven areas too close to the new one, all seven of those areas need to have the distance checking disabled, if only six disabled it and one has it enabled, the new area cannot be created. - This also solves the issue when people are gone for longer: You cannot build near them. - "Distance reduction over time" and "lowering distance rules to a chosen value" sound interesting, we'll consider those.
Author
  • Creating areas too close to another or to cities will not work anymore. It will fail with an error message.

City areas grow sometimes. How that would be handled? By this growing, some near areas may suddenly be within the 300 limit, where previously they were ok.

In worst case, if owner accidentally un-protects its colliding area, he will not be able to re-protect it again.

Once solution would be to lower the border on such extension.

If there was area 300 away from a city and after extending the borders that area is suddenly 250 away from a city, the protective borders around that city must be lowered to 250 in the process.

> - Creating areas too close to another or to cities will not work anymore. It will fail with an error message. City areas grow sometimes. How that would be handled? By this growing, some near areas may suddenly be within the 300 limit, where previously they were ok. In worst case, if owner accidentally un-protects its colliding area, he will not be able to re-protect it again. Once solution would be to lower the border on such extension. If there was area 300 away from a city and after extending the borders that area is suddenly 250 away from a city, the protective borders around that city must be lowered to 250 in the process.
Member
  1. If you are planning something big, you should keep your distance right from the start.
  2. Once you have found a place, you are not forced to place your master areas very close to each other, but you can place them with said distance, so that you have already reserved a very large piece of land with this technique.
  3. If you want to build even bigger, you should team up with others anyway. Together, huge areas can be secured.
  4. Otherwise, once again, it helps to talk to the neighbors in good time.
1. If you are planning something big, you should keep your distance right from the start. 2. Once you have found a place, you are not forced to place your master areas very close to each other, but you can place them with said distance, so that you have already reserved a very large piece of land with this technique. 3. If you want to build even bigger, you should team up with others anyway. Together, huge areas can be secured. 4. Otherwise, once again, it helps to talk to the neighbors in good time.
AliasAlreadyTaken added the
4. step/discussion
2. prio/controversial
labels 2023-05-09 01:01:52 +00:00
Member

For a player with some experience not to be aware of the goblin catapult is disheartening... we do mention is a LOT and it clearly isn't enough still. Plus it's notoriously hard for newbies to use, I spend a LOT of time watching newbies failure to launch for extended periods of time because the dialogue box is 'cute' instead of functional.

Another instance of things not being geared for easy understanding, especially when newbies are involved. The lack of remembering just how difficult and challenging this server is to learn for newbies really BUGS ME. I remembering being sure I could NEVER learn my way around Haven or get from spawn to the goblin catapult because it was just too complex, the corners and route is not direct, it's all this way and that way - and just visually there's a LOT to deal with and learn.

The best planners of kindergarten activities are those who remember what being there felt like, not those who remember what college feels like - if you see what I mean.

For a player with some experience not to be aware of the goblin catapult is disheartening... we do mention is a LOT and it clearly isn't enough still. Plus it's notoriously hard for newbies to use, I spend a LOT of time watching newbies failure to launch for extended periods of time because the dialogue box is 'cute' instead of functional. Another instance of things not being geared for easy understanding, especially when newbies are involved. The lack of remembering just how difficult and challenging this server is to learn for newbies really BUGS ME. I remembering being sure I could NEVER learn my way around Haven or get from spawn to the goblin catapult because it was just too complex, the corners and route is not direct, it's all this way and that way - and just visually there's a LOT to deal with and learn. The best planners of kindergarten activities are those who remember what being there felt like, not those who remember what college feels like - if you see what I mean.
Member

Ok, but why don't you make a separate issue out of it: "Keep things simple"?

Ok, but why don't you make a separate issue out of it: "Keep things simple"?
Member

daydream wrote:

we do mention is a LOT and it clearly isn't enough still.

Yes, but that's life. It sometimes takes ages to learn about something everyone else took for granted for a long time. Has happened to me multiple times, both ways around.

daydream wrote:

spend a LOT of time watching newbies failure to launch for extended periods of time because the dialogue box is 'cute' instead of functional.

That may be another problem. The right amount of...warning...regarding dangerous situations is hard to get. For one player, the same words that for another one may mean a casual warning to give the thing some atmosphere may be meant as a clear hint that the player will be brutally slaughtered and loose all. And vice versa. In the long run, with quests, it helps to know how the one who wrote the warning tends to think, but that's nothing new players can know. It'll be a big issue with quests.

daydream wrote:

to the goblin catapult because it was just too complex, the corners and route is not direct, it's all this way and that way - and just visually there's a LOT to deal with and learn.

Oh yes. It's far from easy at the beginning. It really is no wonder that players ask how they can get out of town. Most of us tend to forget that new players don't wear crystal boots - so it takes them ages to get anywhere. Even if they knew where they'd be going.

AliasAlreadyTaken wrote:

Area owners will be able to disable the distance rule for their area. Default will be "no other areas allowed within 150 blocks". To create a new area, ALL conditions must be met. If there are seven areas too close to the new one, all seven of those areas need to have the distance checking disabled, if only six disabled it and one has it enabled, the new area cannot be created.

It's great if the distance rule can be disabled!

The trouble I see here is if someone creates - allowed by all neighbours due to their settings - a new area "too close" and then changes the settings for his area so that the neighbours cannot expand anymore and even loose their protections if they delete them by accident.

AliasAlreadyTaken wrote:

"Distance reduction over time" and "lowering distance rules to a chosen value" sound interesting, we'll consider those.

I don't know. How long the player who built something nice has been gone doesn't really matter in my point of view (sure, if absent nothing nice new can be built, so that's a pity). And those "old" places may rarely be of intrest to new players. Unless they have a particular plan for that particular landscape.

In my experience, players are like magnets to other players. Most want to be togehter with other players, want to build close together, to help each other, to see what's beeing built there over time, to have company.

I've mixed feelings about the distance rule as such. Sure, it did annoy me on other servers if new neighbours built badly, and I usually search for a nice neighbourhood. But then, you can never know in advance how things will devellop.

A lot of builders on the server care about keeping the landscape nice and making the server beautiful. Ugly bases and devastations of the landscape are not welcomed there.

The lack of sufficiently fast travel methods conflicts with the distance rule as well.

Perhaps we can have diffrent...areas...with diffrent conditions? Not small protected areas but something larger scale. The environment around a city might be especilly protected - but not absolutely protected. The city may define manual exceptions (i.e. players can settle alongside that road over there). Things that don't fit in could still be asked to be remove (with a warning to the player that in this area special build rules apply!) - while other (again, large-scale) areas may be more open and allow players to settle where and as close as they want and build as they want (or, again with a few rules that can be checked everywhere in the area).

daydream wrote: > we do mention is a LOT and it clearly isn't enough still. Yes, but that's life. It sometimes takes ages to learn about something everyone else took for granted for a long time. Has happened to me multiple times, both ways around. daydream wrote: > spend a LOT of time watching newbies failure to launch for extended periods of time because the dialogue box is 'cute' instead of functional. That may be another problem. The right amount of...warning...regarding dangerous situations is hard to get. For one player, the same words that for another one may mean a casual warning to give the thing some atmosphere may be meant as a clear hint that the player will be brutally slaughtered and loose all. And vice versa. In the long run, with quests, it helps to know how the one who wrote the warning tends to think, but that's nothing new players can know. It'll be a big issue with quests. daydream wrote: > to the goblin catapult because it was just too complex, the corners and route is not direct, it's all this way and that way - and just visually there's a LOT to deal with and learn. Oh yes. It's far from easy at the beginning. It really is no wonder that players ask how they can get out of town. Most of us tend to forget that new players don't wear crystal boots - so it takes them ages to get anywhere. Even if they knew where they'd be going. AliasAlreadyTaken wrote: > Area owners will be able to disable the distance rule for their area. Default will be "no other areas allowed within 150 blocks". To create a new area, ALL conditions must be met. If there are seven areas too close to the new one, all seven of those areas need to have the distance checking disabled, if only six disabled it and one has it enabled, the new area cannot be created. It's great if the distance rule can be disabled! The trouble I see here is if someone creates - allowed by all neighbours due to their settings - a new area "too close" and *then* changes the settings for his area so that the neighbours cannot expand anymore and even loose their protections if they delete them by accident. AliasAlreadyTaken wrote: > "Distance reduction over time" and "lowering distance rules to a chosen value" sound interesting, we'll consider those. I don't know. How long the player who built something nice has been gone doesn't really matter in my point of view (sure, if absent nothing nice new can be built, so that's a pity). And those "old" places may rarely be of intrest to new players. Unless they have a particular plan for that particular landscape. In my experience, players are like magnets to other players. Most want to be togehter with other players, want to build close together, to help each other, to see what's beeing built there over time, to have company. I've mixed feelings about the distance rule as such. Sure, it did annoy me on other servers if new neighbours built badly, and I usually search for a nice neighbourhood. But then, you can never know in advance how things will devellop. A lot of builders on the server care about keeping the landscape nice and making the server beautiful. Ugly bases and devastations of the landscape are not welcomed there. The lack of sufficiently fast travel methods conflicts with the distance rule as well. Perhaps we can have diffrent...areas...with diffrent conditions? Not small protected areas but something larger scale. The environment around a city might be especilly protected - but not absolutely protected. The city may define manual exceptions (i.e. players can settle alongside that road over there). Things that don't fit in could still be asked to be remove (with a warning to the player that in this area special build rules apply!) - while other (again, large-scale) areas may be more open and allow players to settle where and as close as they want and build as they want (or, again with a few rules that can be checked everywhere in the area).

Please remember: this server has a surface of 65k x 65k.

That's fine for most bases, but not shops.

If you build in an unoccupied area, you will get little to no customers.

And if 150m rule is enforced, there simply won't be enough area with lots of visitors for everyone to build a shop in.

> Please remember: this server has a surface of 65k x 65k. That's fine for most bases, but not shops. If you build in an unoccupied area, you will get little to no customers. And if 150m rule is enforced, there simply won't be enough area with lots of visitors for everyone to build a shop in.
Member

mrdeveloper wrote:

That's fine for most bases, but not shops.

Shops are probably a diffrent issue. Either you have one in Haven, or...not many visitors. It gets a bit better with daydreams' shopping area, but that's already further out. Aveniture changes too much for shops. And Haven...suffers from those many shops.

The NPC may help as soon as everyone can get one. They can offer trades as well and need less room.

mrdeveloper wrote: > That's fine for most bases, but not shops. Shops are probably a diffrent issue. Either you have one in Haven, or...not many visitors. It gets a bit better with daydreams' shopping area, but that's already further out. Aveniture changes too much for shops. And Haven...suffers from those many shops. The NPC may help as soon as everyone can get one. They can offer trades as well and need less room.
Member

It really is no wonder that players ask how they can get out of town. Most of us tend to forget that new players don't wear crystal boots - so it takes them ages to get anywhere. Even if they knew where they'd be going.

Ok, the very first orientation is certainly not easy. It would be nice if there was a very simple wind rose at the spawn point, with the display north, east, south and west and maybe in the first aid book by daydream the hint that on the server (as in real life) the sun rises in the east, etc.

Crystal boots, however, are now thrown at the feet of newbies as soon as they appear in the public farm, presumably to recruit them for a party as soon as possible. I observed it myself several times while I was still in the process of recommending crafting wooden armour to the newcomers.

I don't think much of it, because it also relieves the newbies of the great first moments of achieving something and thus tends to reduce the bond to the server, but that's just my personal opinion.

> It really is no wonder that players ask how they can get out of town. Most of us tend to forget that new players don't wear crystal boots - so it takes them ages to get anywhere. Even if they knew where they'd be going. Ok, the very first orientation is certainly not easy. It would be nice if there was a very simple wind rose at the spawn point, with the display north, east, south and west and maybe in the first aid book by daydream the hint that on the server (as in real life) the sun rises in the east, etc. Crystal boots, however, are now thrown at the feet of newbies as soon as they appear in the public farm, presumably to recruit them for a party as soon as possible. I observed it myself several times while I was still in the process of recommending crafting wooden armour to the newcomers. I don't think much of it, because it also relieves the newbies of the great first moments of achieving something and thus tends to reduce the bond to the server, but that's just my personal opinion.
Member

That's fine for most bases, but not shops.

You think your shop will have more visitors if it is placed near other players areas and they don't like to have this shop near them?

I, on the other hand, think that shops either have to be such a very good offer that word gets around among the players about their value, as was the case with shanish's shop in the early days.

Or the shops form attractive clusters and this is only possible in consultation with several players among themselves. The best way to do this is in an easily accessible city and talk to the mayors accordingly.

> That's fine for most bases, but not shops. You think your shop will have more visitors if it is placed near other players areas and they don't like to have this shop near them? I, on the other hand, think that shops either have to be such a very good offer that word gets around among the players about their value, as was the case with shanish's shop in the early days. Or the shops form attractive clusters and this is only possible in consultation with several players among themselves. The best way to do this is in an easily accessible city and talk to the mayors accordingly.

Creating areas too close to another or to cities will not work.

And how would that work for roads, because some mayors make roads and protect them until the reach the edge of the city area.

One alternative would be to give mayors the city area and give a sub area to City.

>Creating areas too close to another or to cities will not work. And how would that work for roads, because some mayors make roads and protect them until the reach the edge of the city area. One alternative would be to give mayors the city area and give a sub area to City.
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Reference: your-land/bugtracker#4331
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