restrict usage of replacer to player's own protection areas #3932

New Issue

flux · 2023-03-04T20:06:17Z

flux commented

2023-03-04 20:06:17 +00:00

Originally posted by @AliasAlreadyTaken in #1702 (comment)

With the discussion around restricting builders flight to owned areas in #3453 we could use a similar mechanic to restrict the replacer.

This would cause the replacer to become a builders tool, instead of a nether/mining/everywhere exploit.

_Originally posted by @AliasAlreadyTaken in https://gitea.your-land.de/your-land/bugtracker/issues/1702#issuecomment-37294_ > With the discussion around restricting builders flight to owned areas in #3453 we could use a similar mechanic to restrict the replacer. > > This would cause the replacer to become a builders tool, instead of a nether/mining/everywhere exploit.

👍 1 👎 2

flux added the

1. kind/enhancement

4. step/discussion

2. prio/controversial

1. kind/breaking

labels 2023-03-04 20:06:44 +00:00

Boot commented

2023-03-06 23:04:18 +00:00

I want to keep the replacer as it is.

flux commented

2023-03-07 03:50:18 +00:00

I want to keep the replacer as it is.

as someone who's exploited the replacer extensively in the nether, i feel like it'd be better for the future of the server to restrict its usage somehow. some players figure out how to exploit mechanics, and most players do not, and i think it's generally better to minimize these sort of advantages.

i'll offer to forfeit 90% of my nether ivory and basalt stores (not anything already placed), if that turns the opinion on this issue. i don't think i've abused it for any other resources.

i want to note, though, that most of my replacer exploitation was done w/ other bugs in effect as well - i mined most of my nether basalt in the month that alias turned off nether mobs for some reason. i mined most of my nether ivory on the top of the nether where mobs don't spawn, before that was turned into bedrock.

> I want to keep the replacer as it is. as someone who's exploited the replacer extensively in the nether, i feel like it'd be better for the future of the server to restrict its usage somehow. some players figure out how to exploit mechanics, and most players do not, and i think it's generally better to minimize these sort of advantages. i'll offer to forfeit 90% of my nether ivory and basalt stores (not anything already placed), if that turns the opinion on this issue. i don't think i've abused it for any other resources. i want to note, though, that most of my replacer exploitation was done w/ other bugs in effect as well - i mined most of my nether basalt in the month that alias turned off nether mobs for some reason. i mined most of my nether ivory on the top of the nether where mobs don't spawn, before that was turned into bedrock.

Sokomine commented

2023-03-07 11:22:29 +00:00

The reason for the thumbs down here is that while most regions where the replacer can be legitimately used are protected - not all are. Just imagine road building. Or people testing in a not yet protected area how something might look like. Don't make life for builders more difficult thrugh restrictions!

As things in the nether can't be protected and it's mostly used for fighting, I don't care if the replacer works there. Exclude the height where the nether is but don't limit legitimate building. Even if it is outside of usual patterns.

Regarding having obtained materials easier in the past: Hm. Don't add too many restrictions nowadays. It changes gameplay too much and makes it too difficult for newer players.

The reason for the thumbs down here is that while most regions where the replacer can be legitimately used *are* protected - not all are. Just imagine road building. Or people testing in a not yet protected area how something might look like. Don't make life for builders more difficult thrugh restrictions! As things in the nether can't be protected and it's mostly used for fighting, I don't care if the replacer works there. Exclude the height where the nether is but don't limit legitimate building. Even if it is outside of usual patterns. Regarding having obtained materials easier in the past: Hm. Don't add too many restrictions nowadays. It changes gameplay too much and makes it too difficult for newer players.

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flux commented

2023-03-07 16:17:56 +00:00

Just imagine road building.

i suppose i'm currently using it to build a set of roads to help w/ miocene movement.

> Just imagine road building. i suppose i'm *currently* using it to build a set of roads to help w/ miocene movement.

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Boot commented

2023-03-08 13:50:58 +00:00

I have not yet understood what advantages the restriction of the replacer should have, also because it is still unclear to what extent @flux would like to restrict it.

Of course, the replacer can be used primarily as a construction tool and is indispensable for the construction of roofs. I couldn't build without it. If the replacer were bound to the use of an area, I would always reserve one for it and let it be dragged along from construction site to construction site.

For the pure mining of large quantities of material, there are significantly better tools. However, it is extremely helpful in the mining of very hard material, which can only be degraded very slowly with other tools, such as obsidian and nether basalt. For ore mining I used the replacer as long as it is bright enough. Without light I use almost only the lava pik axe and of course ugly holes always remain. It is actually nicer to load stones into the replacer and harvest the structures cleanly. I do this especially in the public mine, in mines that are close to my shafts and especially in my (unprotected) lava lake caves.

It continues to be extremely valuable in large-scale terraforming. With the replacer I have made all Tenebris fungus-free and many other (also unprotected) areas. Without the replacer, it would certainly have resulted in quite a destruction of the landscape. But this way it could be done gently and the result can hopefully be seen (even better only if wild plants could no longer only be planted on arable land).

One aspect I haven't tried yet (I always forget, in the heat of the moment) is using a replacer as a weapon in the fight against voice. However, I have some ideas in this regard. BTW, they have nothing to do with lava. By the way, during the repair of my lava damage during one of the last Miocene hikes, I was only able to bring the iceberg with snow back to its original condition thanks to the replacer.

It will always be and remain so in the game, as in life, that some will find out something that others will not find out and thus have an advantage. Players who like to experiment will find out more (for example, how to get Umbras Obscure nodes) and others will never know. Players who communicate a lot with each other (or read books by @flux) will learn more. Players who can read and understand code have particularly great advantages. Players who hunt death-defying iron golems, balrogs, and dragons will receive nether bars, balrog whips, and dragon scales, while the others never will. Unless they are good traders.

Smart, experimental, communicative, persistent and courageous players will be rewarded on this server with great events, quests and Voice battles. They love challenges and you don't have to make it too easy for them. Hence the deadly Nether. But you shouldn't punish them extra. But I already had this feeling (because @flux spoke of feelings above). For example, when it became apparent that the old balrog would soon become a victim of other farms, he was surprisingly completely turned upside down. Ultimately, however, it's all a question of balance.

I have not yet understood what advantages the restriction of the replacer should have, also because it is still unclear to what extent @flux would like to restrict it. Of course, the replacer can be used primarily as a construction tool and is indispensable for the construction of roofs. I couldn't build without it. If the replacer were bound to the use of an area, I would always reserve one for it and let it be dragged along from construction site to construction site. For the pure mining of large quantities of material, there are significantly better tools. However, it is extremely helpful in the mining of very hard material, which can only be degraded very slowly with other tools, such as obsidian and nether basalt. For ore mining I used the replacer as long as it is bright enough. Without light I use almost only the lava pik axe and of course ugly holes always remain. It is actually nicer to load stones into the replacer and harvest the structures cleanly. I do this especially in the public mine, in mines that are close to my shafts and especially in my (unprotected) lava lake caves. It continues to be extremely valuable in large-scale terraforming. With the replacer I have made all Tenebris fungus-free and many other (also unprotected) areas. Without the replacer, it would certainly have resulted in quite a destruction of the landscape. But this way it could be done gently and the result can hopefully be seen (even better only if wild plants could no longer only be planted on arable land). One aspect I haven't tried yet (I always forget, in the heat of the moment) is using a replacer as a weapon in the fight against voice. However, I have some ideas in this regard. BTW, they have nothing to do with lava. By the way, during the repair of my lava damage during one of the last Miocene hikes, I was only able to bring the iceberg with snow back to its original condition thanks to the replacer. It will always be and remain so in the game, as in life, that some will find out something that others will not find out and thus have an advantage. Players who like to experiment will find out more (for example, how to get Umbras Obscure nodes) and others will never know. Players who communicate a lot with each other (or read books by @flux) will learn more. Players who can read and understand code have particularly great advantages. Players who hunt death-defying iron golems, balrogs, and dragons will receive nether bars, balrog whips, and dragon scales, while the others never will. Unless they are good traders. Smart, experimental, communicative, persistent and courageous players will be rewarded on this server with great events, quests and Voice battles. They love challenges and you don't have to make it too easy for them. Hence the deadly Nether. But you shouldn't punish them extra. But I already had this feeling (because @flux spoke of feelings above). For example, when it became apparent that the old balrog would soon become a victim of other farms, he was surprisingly completely turned upside down. Ultimately, however, it's all a question of balance.

👍 1

AliasAlreadyTaken commented

2023-03-08 23:47:43 +00:00

It is not flux who wants to restrict it, it is Alias who wants to.

The replacer is a meant to be a builder tool, helping builders place or replace blocks in their constructions.

Currently the replacer is used as a mining tool. Since it effortlessly and without delay digs even the hardest materials, it makes all other digging tools obsolete. This is not what the replacer is intended for and this behaviour needs to be fixed.

The replacer is also used in the nether in a similar fashion. The intention is not to punish courageous players, but to remove an exploit.

Unfortunately it is true that people who read code have an advantage. Those need to take extra cautious steps not to get into ethical conflicts.

The plan is to restrict the replacer to areas that are owned by the person who uses it, in the hopes it will not limit builders, but remove the exploits in the nether and the mine.

It is not flux who wants to restrict it, it is Alias who wants to. The replacer is a meant to be a builder tool, helping builders place or replace blocks in their constructions. Currently the replacer is used as a mining tool. Since it effortlessly and without delay digs even the hardest materials, it makes all other digging tools obsolete. This is not what the replacer is intended for and this behaviour needs to be fixed. The replacer is also used in the nether in a similar fashion. The intention is not to punish courageous players, but to remove an exploit. Unfortunately it is true that people who read code have an advantage. Those need to take extra cautious steps not to get into ethical conflicts. The plan is to restrict the replacer to areas that are owned by the person who uses it, in the hopes it will not limit builders, but remove the exploits in the nether and the mine.

flux commented

2023-03-09 01:41:02 +00:00

i'm certainly on the fence on this one, but i thought it was an idea that deserved discussion, and i understood from the start that it'd be controversial.

Boot and Sokomine bring up some good arguments, and i feel like a compromise can be reached. judging by the sentiments expressed here, i feel like the following restrictions are less objectionable, and will still prevent "cheaty" uses of the replacer:

ban all usage inside the nether. the nether is meant to be a terrible death-hole, where nothing you build is permanent. i don't see any "legitimate" uses for the replacer in the nether, just exploits.
create a replacer blacklist that restricts replacement of certain nodes outside of a protection area, but allows them inside protection. i'm not certain which nodes would go into this new blacklist, but possibly it'd include some things in the current global blacklist.
create a "tool capabilities" for the replacer, only applying to unprotected areas, that will allow replacing basic stuff like leaves, trees, dirt, and stone, but will prevent replacing e.g. obsidian.

i'm certainly on the fence on this one, but i thought it was an idea that deserved discussion, and i understood from the start that it'd be controversial. Boot and Sokomine bring up some good arguments, and i feel like a compromise can be reached. judging by the sentiments expressed here, i feel like the following restrictions are less objectionable, and will still prevent "cheaty" uses of the replacer: * ban all usage inside the nether. the nether is meant to be a terrible death-hole, where nothing you build is permanent. i don't see any "legitimate" uses for the replacer in the nether, just exploits. * create a replacer blacklist that restricts replacement of certain nodes outside of a protection area, but allows them inside protection. i'm not certain which nodes would go into this new blacklist, but possibly it'd include some things in the current global blacklist. * create a "tool capabilities" for the replacer, only applying to unprotected areas, that will allow replacing basic stuff like leaves, trees, dirt, and stone, but will prevent replacing e.g. obsidian.

👍 1

Sokomine commented

2023-03-09 12:14:25 +00:00

It is actually nicer to load stones into the replacer and harvest the structures cleanly. I do this especially in the public mine, in mines that are close to my shafts and especially in my (unprotected) lava lake caves.

That lava lake area is certainly something that is a building project and where it looks a lot nicer if there are no ores sticking out of the walls and columns.

Currently the replacer is used as a mining tool. Since it effortlessly and without delay digs even the hardest materials, it makes all other digging tools obsolete. This is not what the replacer is intended for and this behaviour needs to be fixed.

How many hard materials are there really? And what impact does it have? I've used the replacer on obsidian as that's very annoying to mine normally. The obsidian mined goes into healing Tribe Miocene, colored glass panes and the occasional build project when that material is the one that is needed. Sometimes Oerkki are also eager to donate further obsidian.

All other ores...may vary in digging time, but...er...I mine a lot...and it just doesn't play a role for me. Maybe if you got your very first wooden pick, or just upgraded to a stone pick...Ok, full mese blocks take their time to dig, but then...there aren't that many around, and switching tools for them kind of feels like too much work.

I'm still against restricting the replacer to protected areas. It's difficult to get a list of all nodes that can legitimately be replaced.

A blacklist is easier and exists already. Just add somewhere (i.e. in yl_commons; needs to soft-depend on replacer then) calls like:

replacer.blacklist[ node_name ]

By default, the following blocks are blacklisted: tnt:boom, tnt:gunpowder, tnt:gunpowder_burning, tnt:tnt, protector:protect and protector:protect2.

Ok, YL currently uses a fork of my mod which may not support blacklisting. Perhaps switch back to the original? It provides a history of recently replaced materials and can be set to modes like replace material type or replace shape or both (normal behaviour). Storing a new pattern can be done through Aux1 + right click which is very helpful in fly mode. Though the inspector tool has advanced a lot in the fork. Maybe I ought to integrate that.

> It is actually nicer to load stones into the replacer and harvest the structures cleanly. I do this especially in the public mine, in mines that are close to my shafts and especially in my (unprotected) lava lake caves. That lava lake area is certainly something that is a building project and where it looks a lot nicer if there are no ores sticking out of the walls and columns. > Currently the replacer is used as a mining tool. Since it effortlessly and without delay digs even the hardest materials, it makes all other digging tools obsolete. This is not what the replacer is intended for and this behaviour needs to be fixed. How many hard materials are there really? And what impact does it have? I've used the replacer on obsidian as that's very annoying to mine normally. The obsidian mined goes into healing Tribe Miocene, colored glass panes and the occasional build project when that material is the one that is needed. Sometimes Oerkki are also eager to donate further obsidian. All other ores...may vary in digging time, but...er...I mine a lot...and it just doesn't play a role for me. Maybe if you got your very first wooden pick, or just upgraded to a stone pick...Ok, full mese blocks take their time to dig, but then...there aren't that many around, and switching tools for them kind of feels like too much work. I'm still against restricting the replacer to protected areas. It's difficult to get a list of all nodes that can legitimately be replaced. A blacklist is easier and exists already. Just add somewhere (i.e. in yl_commons; needs to soft-depend on replacer then) calls like: `replacer.blacklist[ node_name ]` By default, the following blocks are blacklisted: tnt:boom, tnt:gunpowder, tnt:gunpowder_burning, tnt:tnt, protector:protect and protector:protect2. Ok, YL currently uses a fork of my mod which may not support blacklisting. Perhaps switch back to the original? It provides a history of recently replaced materials and can be set to modes like replace material type or replace shape or both (normal behaviour). Storing a new pattern can be done through Aux1 + right click which is very helpful in fly mode. Though the inspector tool has advanced a lot in the fork. Maybe I ought to integrate that.

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