[testserver] woodcutting now permanent? / woodcutting review #3900

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opened 2023-02-26 15:53:56 +00:00 by JeCel · 10 comments

EDIT: After some more testing I see it behaves a bit different than I thought. I will test it a bit more and then leave a proper review of the new woodcutting feature here.

I just tested the new woodcutting on the testserver and I find it every odd/unintuitive. Instead of pressing sneak to activate it you now have to press sneak to deactivate it. So now every time you dig one trunk it automatically get's activated, meaning you have to keep sneak pressed in order to cut with your own control.
And the /toggle_woodcutting command doesn't seem to exist now?
I think this can lead to a lot of accidents when building.

EDIT: After some more testing I see it behaves a bit different than I thought. I will test it a bit more and then leave a proper review of the new woodcutting feature here. I just tested the new woodcutting on the testserver and I find it every odd/unintuitive. Instead of pressing sneak to activate it you now have to press sneak to deactivate it. So now every time you dig one trunk it automatically get's activated, meaning you have to keep sneak pressed in order to cut with your own control. And the /toggle_woodcutting command doesn't seem to exist now? I think this can lead to a lot of accidents when building.
AliasAlreadyTaken added the
1. kind/enhancement
4. step/discussion
labels 2023-02-26 15:57:17 +00:00
Author

So, this is how I understand the new woodcutting mechanic:
Woodcutting now only works with an axe, which makes sense. When starting to cut a tree with an axe, woodcutting automatically gets activated and can be deactivated when pressing sneak. You have to hold sneak in order to cut multiple trunk nodes of a tree manually.

Apparently, trunks that were placed by hand are not affected by woodcutting. If you place tree leaves around multiple manually placed tree trunks, woodcutting will be activated when cutting one of those trunks with an axe, but only that one single trunk and all the leaves will disappear.

test

So, the new woodcutting mechanic actually doesn't seem to be a risk for building. It actually seems to be even less risky than how it was before.
Also, if you remove the leaves of naturally grown tree before trying to woodcut, the tree will still be recognized as such and therefore woodcutting will work (at least with the default tree that's the case).

When a tree is being cut by woodcutting, it's been done so from top to bottom, for every leave and trunk. Depending on which tree you are cutting, the woodcutting is now much faster than the old one or a bit slower. For example, it took me about 10 minutes to cut a big moretrees oak tree (opposed to more than 30 minutes with the old version). That is much faster. But when cutting palms or date trees, every leave gets cut before the trunks itself, so cutting those takes a bit longer. But considering the others are much faster now, this is not really a big deal. A disadvantage though is, that with very big trees, you cannot see the progress (e.g. Moretrees Oak Tree). Another thing is that, at least with the Moretrees Oak Trees, if you've cut the lowest part of the trunk and stop woodcutting for whatever reason, it will be very buggy to resume the woodcutting with the trunks available at the bottom end.

Trying to start woodcutting from there will lead to only one trunk being cut. It seems that this is because of the distance to the node, because when I built myself up to get closer to the tree and then started woodcutting, it would work normally.

Because of the top-to-bottom cutting, some trunks might not be dug if you start cutting somewhere in the middle of the whole trunk.

That only seems to happen if the gap is big enough though.

Another thing that I noticed is that fruit and such, will be also picked up by woodcutting except for the Moretrees Apple Tree, for which the apples will drop on the ground.

And gaining too much distance or switching the currently hold item from an axe to something else (e.g when you want to eat something) will stop the woodcutting.

Overall, considering all these things, I like the new mechanic, as it seems much faster and safe for building. I also like that it is visually shown which kind of tree is currently being cut.

What I don't like is that the woodcutting will start at the top, as you then can't see the progress with big trees like Moretrees Oaks. Another thing that I find sad is that you now have to constantly hold the axe and stay close to the tree to cut it with woodcutting successfully (eventhough it does indeed make sense this way). Before, I liked to use that time to do something else while waiting until a tree is done. With most trees that won't matter very much, but a big Moretrees Oak Tree still takes 10 minutes to be cut down, which is a long time to just sit and wait there. But maybe that is a good deal considering that the wood of a whole Moretrees Oak Tree can get you very far and is cut much faster now anyways.

What I'd also prefer is if the leaves again would be cut as a whole as soon as the last trunk next to a bunch of those is removed. That way woodcutting and manually cutting combined are even faster (I usually like to combine both methods). This way it is also much easier to control which trees to cut, when there are multiples. Since now also every single leave get's cut and therefore every leave to another leave, you could accidently ruin a whole forest with this, when not paying attention.

I also don't quite understand why the /toggle_woodcutting command got removed, because I can imagine that some people might not like that woodcutting now get's always triggered when cutting trees with an axe.
Is there maybe a new command that I just missed?

So, I hope I covered everything I noticed. If not, I might add it later.

So, this is how I understand the new woodcutting mechanic: Woodcutting now **only** works with an axe, which makes sense. When starting to cut a tree with an axe, woodcutting automatically gets activated and can be deactivated when pressing sneak. You have to **hold sneak** in order to cut multiple trunk nodes of a tree manually. Apparently, trunks that were placed by hand are not affected by woodcutting. If you place tree leaves around multiple manually placed tree trunks, woodcutting will be activated when cutting one of those trunks with an axe, but only that one single trunk and all the leaves will disappear. ![test](https://i.ibb.co/mbQknpW/screenshot-20230226-173553.png) ![](https://i.ibb.co/BTLXrQp/screenshot-20230226-173604.png) So, the new woodcutting mechanic actually doesn't seem to be a risk for building. It actually seems to be even less risky than how it was before. Also, if you remove the leaves of naturally grown tree before trying to woodcut, the tree will still be recognized as such and therefore woodcutting will work (at least with the default tree that's the case). When a tree is being cut by woodcutting, it's been done so from top to bottom, for every leave and trunk. Depending on which tree you are cutting, the woodcutting is now much faster than the old one or a bit slower. For example, it took me about 10 minutes to cut a big moretrees oak tree (opposed to more than 30 minutes with the old version). That is much faster. But when cutting palms or date trees, every leave gets cut before the trunks itself, so cutting those takes a bit longer. But considering the others are much faster now, this is not really a big deal. A disadvantage though is, that with very big trees, you cannot see the progress (e.g. Moretrees Oak Tree). Another thing is that, at least with the Moretrees Oak Trees, if you've cut the lowest part of the trunk and stop woodcutting for whatever reason, it will be very buggy to resume the woodcutting with the trunks available at the bottom end. ![](https://i.ibb.co/HHqQJDz/screenshot-20230226-174924.png) ![](https://i.ibb.co/yf7bGNQ/screenshot-20230226-174931.png) Trying to start woodcutting from there will lead to only one trunk being cut. It seems that this is because of the distance to the node, because when I built myself up to get closer to the tree and then started woodcutting, it would work normally. Because of the top-to-bottom cutting, some trunks might not be dug if you start cutting somewhere in the middle of the whole trunk. ![](https://i.ibb.co/GxMzQ1k/screenshot-20230226-175426.png) ![](https://i.ibb.co/tsSYRsk/screenshot-20230226-175438.png) That only seems to happen if the gap is big enough though. Another thing that I noticed is that fruit and such, will be also picked up by woodcutting **except** for the Moretrees Apple Tree, for which the apples will drop on the ground. And gaining too much distance or switching the currently hold item from an axe to something else (e.g when you want to eat something) will stop the woodcutting. Overall, considering all these things, I like the new mechanic, as it seems much faster and safe for building. I also like that it is visually shown which kind of tree is currently being cut. What I don't like is that the woodcutting will start at the top, as you then can't see the progress with big trees like Moretrees Oaks. Another thing that I find sad is that you now have to constantly hold the axe and stay close to the tree to cut it with woodcutting successfully (eventhough it does indeed make sense this way). Before, I liked to use that time to do something else while waiting until a tree is done. With most trees that won't matter very much, but a big Moretrees Oak Tree still takes 10 minutes to be cut down, which is a long time to just sit and wait there. But maybe that is a good deal considering that the wood of a whole Moretrees Oak Tree can get you very far and is cut much faster now anyways. What I'd also prefer is if the leaves again would be cut as a whole as soon as the last trunk next to a bunch of those is removed. That way woodcutting and manually cutting combined are even faster (I usually like to combine both methods). This way it is also much easier to control which trees to cut, when there are multiples. Since now also every single leave get's cut and therefore every leave to another leave, you could accidently ruin a whole forest with this, when not paying attention. I also don't quite understand why the /toggle_woodcutting command got removed, because I can imagine that some people might not like that woodcutting now get's always triggered when cutting trees with an axe. Is there maybe a new command that I just missed? So, I hope I covered everything I noticed. If not, I might add it later.
JeCel changed title from [testserver] woodcutting now permanent? to [testserver] woodcutting now permanent? /woodcutting review 2023-02-26 17:37:07 +00:00
JeCel changed title from [testserver] woodcutting now permanent? /woodcutting review to [testserver] woodcutting now permanent? / woodcutting review 2023-02-26 17:37:18 +00:00
Member

why the /toggle_woodcutting command got removed

because the it's a different mod, try /toggle_choppy :)

> why the /toggle_woodcutting command got removed because the it's a different mod, try `/toggle_choppy` :)
Member

you ... can't see the progress with big trees like Moretrees Oaks

i suppose that's an issue. hm. it'd be tricky to create a "progress bar" because the mod doesn't know how big the full tree is, though i suppose it does know something about how tall it is... but then again, it doesn't know much about how much is left to cut, even if cutting is actively happening at a certain y level.

I'd also prefer is if the leaves again would be cut as a whole as soon as the last trunk next to a bunch of those is removed

that would complicate the logic quite a lot, unfortunately. it'd be possible to leave all the leaves until last. it'd also be possible to increase the speed with which leaves are cut - currently, it's equivalent to a diamond sword, but could easily be made faster.

Since now also every single leave get's cut and therefore every leave to another leave, you could accidently ruin a whole forest with this, when not paying attention.

it will only do this up to a certain point - there's a guess about the shape of a tree, and it will stop when it gets to the edge of the shape, even if there's additional tree nodes there. you can certainly still wreck a chunk of jungle, but it does stop eventually. also, you'll have to stop and repair your axe eventually, and start the process again.

> you ... can't see the progress with big trees like Moretrees Oaks i suppose that's an issue. hm. it'd be tricky to create a "progress bar" because the mod doesn't know how big the full tree is, though i suppose it does know something about how tall it is... but then again, it doesn't know much about how much is left to cut, even if cutting is actively happening at a certain y level. > I'd also prefer is if the leaves again would be cut as a whole as soon as the last trunk next to a bunch of those is removed that would complicate the logic quite a lot, unfortunately. it'd be possible to leave *all* the leaves until last. it'd also be possible to increase the speed with which leaves are cut - currently, it's equivalent to a diamond sword, but could easily be made faster. > Since now also every single leave get's cut and therefore every leave to another leave, you could accidently ruin a whole forest with this, when not paying attention. it will only do this up to a certain point - there's a guess about the shape of a tree, and it will stop when it gets to the edge of the shape, even if there's additional tree nodes there. you can certainly still wreck a chunk of jungle, but it *does* stop eventually. also, you'll have to stop and repair your axe eventually, and start the process again.
Member

you ... can't see the progress with big trees like Moretrees Oaks

i could perhaps add something that adds a waypoint to the HUD for the last-cut position? that might be pretty distracting though.

> you ... can't see the progress with big trees like Moretrees Oaks i could perhaps add something that adds a waypoint to the HUD for the last-cut position? that might be pretty distracting though.
Member

thoughts?

thoughts?
1.5 MiB
Member

except for the Moretrees Apple Tree, for which the apples will drop on the ground.

most of the apples should go into your inventory, but a few will fall on the ground, when adjacent leaves/trunks are removed before the apples are discovered.

> except for the Moretrees Apple Tree, for which the apples will drop on the ground. *most* of the apples *should* go into your inventory, but a few will fall on the ground, when adjacent leaves/trunks are removed before the apples are discovered.
Member

So, the new woodcutting mechanic actually doesn't seem to be a risk for building. It actually seems to be even less risky than how it was before.

the side of this that you probably didn't see, is that this only affects new structures - there's still a risk for accidents involving old structures.

> So, the new woodcutting mechanic actually doesn't seem to be a risk for building. It actually seems to be even less risky than how it was before. the side of this that you probably didn't see, is that this only affects *new* structures - there's still a risk for accidents involving old structures.
Author

because the it's a different mod, try /toggle_choppy :)

Ah, thank you. Interesting how it works, basically just the opposite. At first I found it weird but it makes sense.

Generally I like how it's so easy to stop the woodcutting. I wonder if it will perform as good on the main server, considering all the lag over there.

i suppose that's an issue. hm. it'd be tricky to create a "progress bar" because the mod doesn't know how big the full tree is, though i suppose it does know something about how tall it is... but then again, it doesn't know much about how much is left to cut, even if cutting is actively happening at a certain y level.

And what about making the trees being cut from bottom to top?

that would complicate the logic quite a lot, unfortunately. it'd be possible to leave all the leaves until last. it'd also be possible to increase the speed with which leaves are cut - currently, it's equivalent to a diamond sword, but could easily be made faster.

Hm, I think of those increasing the speed of leave removal makes more sense. The speed maybe could also just be dependend on the type of axe you use, so the better the axe the faster the removal of the leaves (or maybe the woodcutting in general).

thoughts?

Oh, interesting. A bit distracting/irritating though. Maybe only make it appear for every tenth (or more/less depending on the tree) trunk node? If possible it could be toggleable with a command?

most of the apples should go into your inventory, but a few will fall on the ground, when adjacent leaves/trunks are removed before the apples are discovered.

Ah, I didn't notice that, my bad.

the side of this that you probably didn't see, is that this only affects new structures - there's still a risk for accidents involving old structures.

Still it's a lot less risky, especially if the woodcutting can be so fastly deactivated in the main server as on the test server.

Btw. I just wanted to mention that it's really great what you did there! My long post might have come across very critical, but I was just trying to state my view on all the things I noticed for you to get a better overview. The more and more I think about all the changes you made, the more like them. They are definitely for the better

> because the it's a different mod, try `/toggle_choppy` :) Ah, thank you. Interesting how it works, basically just the opposite. At first I found it weird but it makes sense. Generally I like how it's so easy to stop the woodcutting. I wonder if it will perform as good on the main server, considering all the lag over there. > i suppose that's an issue. hm. it'd be tricky to create a "progress bar" because the mod doesn't know how big the full tree is, though i suppose it does know something about how tall it is... but then again, it doesn't know much about how much is left to cut, even if cutting is actively happening at a certain y level. And what about making the trees being cut from bottom to top? > that would complicate the logic quite a lot, unfortunately. it'd be possible to leave *all* the leaves until last. it'd also be possible to increase the speed with which leaves are cut - currently, it's equivalent to a diamond sword, but could easily be made faster. Hm, I think of those increasing the speed of leave removal makes more sense. The speed maybe could also just be dependend on the type of axe you use, so the better the axe the faster the removal of the leaves (or maybe the woodcutting in general). > thoughts? Oh, interesting. A bit distracting/irritating though. Maybe only make it appear for every tenth (or more/less depending on the tree) trunk node? If possible it could be toggleable with a command? > *most* of the apples *should* go into your inventory, but a few will fall on the ground, when adjacent leaves/trunks are removed before the apples are discovered. Ah, I didn't notice that, my bad. > the side of this that you probably didn't see, is that this only affects *new* structures - there's still a risk for accidents involving old structures. Still it's a lot less risky, especially if the woodcutting can be so fastly deactivated in the main server as on the test server. Btw. I just wanted to mention that it's really great what you did there! My long post might have come across very critical, but I was just trying to state my view on all the things I noticed for you to get a better overview. The more and more I think about all the changes you made, the more like them. They are definitely for the better
Member

Interesting how it works, basically just the opposite. At first I found it weird but it makes sense.

the goal is for people to discover and start using it immediately, instead of leaving a bunch of floating trees until they do.

And what about making the trees being cut from bottom to top?

the goal is to prevent noobs from creating floating trees, without doing something drastic like actually causing the tree to "fall". if you start cutting down a big tree w/ a stone axe, and it cuts from the bottom up, most likely the part that you can't finish will be floating. i agree the lack of feedback when cutting large trees top-down not great. i'll work on figuring out something to make it more obvious what's going on.

one thing i've already done to help w/ the "lack of feedback" was to make it play "node dug" sounds when appropriate. that's not yet live on the your-land test server though.

Hm, I think of those increasing the speed of leave removal makes more sense. The speed maybe could also just be dependend on the type of axe you use, so the better the axe the faster the removal of the leaves (or maybe the woodcutting in general).

i wish axes came w/ "snappy" groupcaps, which are used for cutting leaves ("choppy" is the name of the groupcap for cutting wood). i suppose one way i could "fudge" it is by making the axe cut leaves 10x as fast as it cuts wood, at whatever speed that is. i'll play w/ that and see how it feels.

My long post might have come across very critical, but I was just trying to state my view on all the things I noticed for you to get a better overview.

i thought it was a great review, and has certainly resulted in improvements :) i do not mind criticism, particularly well-thought-out criticism

> Interesting how it works, basically just the opposite. At first I found it weird but it makes sense. the goal is for people to discover and start using it *immediately*, instead of leaving a bunch of floating trees until they do. > And what about making the trees being cut from bottom to top? the goal is to prevent noobs from creating floating trees, without doing something drastic like actually causing the tree to "fall". if you start cutting down a big tree w/ a stone axe, and it cuts from the bottom up, most likely the part that you can't finish will be floating. i agree the lack of feedback when cutting large trees top-down not great. i'll work on figuring out something to make it more obvious what's going on. one thing i've already done to help w/ the "lack of feedback" was to make it play "node dug" sounds when appropriate. that's not yet live on the your-land test server though. > Hm, I think of those increasing the speed of leave removal makes more sense. The speed maybe could also just be dependend on the type of axe you use, so the better the axe the faster the removal of the leaves (or maybe the woodcutting in general). i wish axes came w/ "snappy" groupcaps, which are used for cutting leaves ("choppy" is the name of the groupcap for cutting wood). i suppose one way i could "fudge" it is by making the axe cut leaves 10x as fast as it cuts wood, at whatever speed that is. i'll play w/ that and see how it feels. > My long post might have come across very critical, but I was just trying to state my view on all the things I noticed for you to get a better overview. i thought it was a great review, and has certainly resulted in improvements :) i do not mind criticism, particularly well-thought-out criticism
Member

i've added a command (/visualize_choppy) to toggle the "waypoints in the HUD" feature to show what's being cut. i've also added a bit more feedback to the HUD:

image

also, the speed at which leaves are cut is now proportional to the speed at which the axe cuts wood.

i've added a command (`/visualize_choppy`) to toggle the "waypoints in the HUD" feature to show what's being cut. i've also added a bit more feedback to the HUD: ![image](/attachments/ede58cf7-9aca-401e-98ae-e4d489682bd8) also, the speed at which leaves are cut is now proportional to the speed at which the axe cuts wood.
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Reference: your-land/bugtracker#3900
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