Freebie reports: Stone ladders are not longer b ... #3030

Closed
opened 2022-11-13 19:49:04 +00:00 by yourland-report · 11 comments

Freebie reports a bug:

Stone ladders are not longer be protected even in areas (breakable by other players!!!) and can't be (re)built one flat over on flat.

Player position:

{
	x = 2109.6098632813,
	y = 15.5,
	z = 1138.4479980469
}

Player look:

{
	x = 0.3712286055088,
	y = -0.36601400375366,
	z = -0.8533598780632
}

Player information:

{
	lang_code = "de",
	ip_version = 6,
	min_rtt = 0.01799999922514,
	avg_rtt = 0.025000000372529,
	min_jitter = 0,
	max_jitter = 0.49200001358986,
	avg_jitter = 0,
	connection_uptime = 314,
	serialization_version = 29,
	patch = 1,
	protocol_version = 41,
	major = 5,
	minor = 6,
	formspec_version = 6,
	state = "Active",
	version_string = "5.6.1",
	max_rtt = 0.54000002145767
}

Player meta:

{
	fields = {
		yl_commons_player_created = "1649959597",
		played_time = "43989",
		digged_nodes = "1",
		placed_nodes = "2",
		died = "1",
		hud_state = "on",
		crafted = "5",
		arenalib_infobox_arenaID = "0",
		partychat = "party",
		["stamina:level"] = "5",
		repellant = "0",
		["stamina:poisoned"] = "no",
		["stamina:exhaustion"] = "107",
		xp = "7",
		yl_commons_player_joined = "1668368698",
		jointime = "1649959597",
		bitten = "0",
		["3d_armor_inventory"] = "return {\"3d_armor:helmet_crystal 1 13700\", \"3d_armor:boots_crystal 1 13700\", \"shields:shield_crystal 1 13700\", \"3d_armor:leggings_crystal 1 13700\", \"3d_armor:chestplate_crystal 1 13700\", \"\"}",
		yl_church = "return {[\"last_death\"] = {[\"y\"] = -12, [\"x\"] = 5984, [\"z\"] = 2968}, [\"last_death_portal\"] = 1649963868}"
	}
}

Log identifier


[MOD] yl_report log identifier = B3QXVzOMR5QhnOC5SHP7vtivRdd0S429

Profiler save:

profile-20221113T194904.json_prettyEE

Status:

# Server: version: 5.6.1-yl | game: Minetest Game | uptime: 4h 33min 59s | max lag: 4.29s | clients (29/42): AliasAlreadyTaken, Antrica, Ashy, Bailiff, Boot, damiemk, Davidsoft, Fishy22, flux, Freebie, Giuseppe, Grzegorz, Insomniacs_Yello, leon1, Marmel, mehe, Minetest13, Miri, Murmel, niceride, Qichta29, rabenkind, rheo, Service, shanish, sherkhan30452, Stelio, Tute, yo_hi

Teleport command:

/teleport xyz 2110 16 1138

Compass command:

/give_compass Construction B3QXVzOMR5QhnOC5SHP7vtivRdd0S429 D2691E 2110 16 1138
Freebie reports a bug: > Stone ladders are not longer be protected even in areas (breakable by other players!!!) and can't be (re)built one flat over on flat. Player position: ``` { x = 2109.6098632813, y = 15.5, z = 1138.4479980469 } ``` Player look: ``` { x = 0.3712286055088, y = -0.36601400375366, z = -0.8533598780632 } ``` Player information: ``` { lang_code = "de", ip_version = 6, min_rtt = 0.01799999922514, avg_rtt = 0.025000000372529, min_jitter = 0, max_jitter = 0.49200001358986, avg_jitter = 0, connection_uptime = 314, serialization_version = 29, patch = 1, protocol_version = 41, major = 5, minor = 6, formspec_version = 6, state = "Active", version_string = "5.6.1", max_rtt = 0.54000002145767 } ``` Player meta: ``` { fields = { yl_commons_player_created = "1649959597", played_time = "43989", digged_nodes = "1", placed_nodes = "2", died = "1", hud_state = "on", crafted = "5", arenalib_infobox_arenaID = "0", partychat = "party", ["stamina:level"] = "5", repellant = "0", ["stamina:poisoned"] = "no", ["stamina:exhaustion"] = "107", xp = "7", yl_commons_player_joined = "1668368698", jointime = "1649959597", bitten = "0", ["3d_armor_inventory"] = "return {\"3d_armor:helmet_crystal 1 13700\", \"3d_armor:boots_crystal 1 13700\", \"shields:shield_crystal 1 13700\", \"3d_armor:leggings_crystal 1 13700\", \"3d_armor:chestplate_crystal 1 13700\", \"\"}", yl_church = "return {[\"last_death\"] = {[\"y\"] = -12, [\"x\"] = 5984, [\"z\"] = 2968}, [\"last_death_portal\"] = 1649963868}" } } ``` Log identifier ``` [MOD] yl_report log identifier = B3QXVzOMR5QhnOC5SHP7vtivRdd0S429 ``` Profiler save: ``` profile-20221113T194904.json_prettyEE ``` Status: ``` # Server: version: 5.6.1-yl | game: Minetest Game | uptime: 4h 33min 59s | max lag: 4.29s | clients (29/42): AliasAlreadyTaken, Antrica, Ashy, Bailiff, Boot, damiemk, Davidsoft, Fishy22, flux, Freebie, Giuseppe, Grzegorz, Insomniacs_Yello, leon1, Marmel, mehe, Minetest13, Miri, Murmel, niceride, Qichta29, rabenkind, rheo, Service, shanish, sherkhan30452, Stelio, Tute, yo_hi ``` Teleport command: ``` /teleport xyz 2110 16 1138 ``` Compass command: ``` /give_compass Construction B3QXVzOMR5QhnOC5SHP7vtivRdd0S429 D2691E 2110 16 1138 ```
AliasAlreadyTaken was assigned by yourland-report 2022-11-13 19:49:04 +00:00
Member

I guess thats why: #2304. I used that flat stone ladders in many ways. If this kind of use will not be allowed any longer without talking about the pros and cons before, there is no reason, why other people could break (by accident) my old protected constructions at my plot and areas now, without any chance for me to repair it again.

I guess thats why: #2304. I used that flat stone ladders in many ways. If this kind of use will not be allowed any longer without talking about the pros and cons before, there is no reason, why other people could break (by accident) my old protected constructions at my plot and areas now, without any chance for me to repair it again.
Member

I've seen the stone ladders beeing used in a creative and non obstrusive way for the betterment of the server. If that breaks now that's bad. Especially if things in existing builds may be changed by the next best player passing by.

Admittedly ladder nerdpoles sometimes existed. At least they look less bad than cobble nerdpoles - because you can see through them.

There is also the fact that there's no buildiers' flight yet. Some people use ladders for scaffolding. There's nothing wrong with that. Scaffolding is important. Please add builders' flight!

Adding a scaffolding node for buildig purposes would be great in several ways but not solve the "problem" of people pillaring up with them - because that's what they'd be made for.

In general the "attached node" feature seems too unpredictable for my taste for general usage. The most and constantly annoying side effect would probably be that things fall down that shouldn't because you redecorate or change something else. Imagine someone starting with a small house with a ladder to get to the upper floor, then deciding that cobble isn't that great a material and the newly obtained blocks would be much nicer? Watch the ladder falling down each time something's changed. Sometimes with lag. Might not even be noticed all the time.

I'm afraid this change has a high potential for annoying legitimate builders while not really having any impact on those who don't care about the environment. Cobble is cheap...

I've seen the stone ladders beeing used in a creative and non obstrusive way for the betterment of the server. If that breaks now that's bad. Especially if things in existing builds may be changed by the next best player passing by. Admittedly ladder nerdpoles sometimes existed. At least they look less bad than cobble nerdpoles - because you can see through them. There is also the fact that there's no buildiers' flight yet. Some people use ladders for scaffolding. There's nothing wrong with that. Scaffolding is important. Please add builders' flight! Adding a scaffolding node for buildig purposes would be great in several ways but not solve the "problem" of people pillaring up with them - because that's what they'd be made for. In general the "attached node" feature seems too unpredictable for my taste for general usage. The most and constantly annoying side effect would probably be that things fall down that shouldn't because you redecorate or change something else. Imagine someone starting with a small house with a ladder to get to the upper floor, then deciding that cobble isn't that great a material and the newly obtained blocks would be much nicer? Watch the ladder falling down each time something's changed. Sometimes with lag. Might not even be noticed all the time. I'm afraid this change has a high potential for annoying legitimate builders while not really having any impact on those who don't care about the environment. Cobble is cheap...
flux added the
1. kind/balancing
2. prio/controversial
labels 2022-11-14 20:54:58 +00:00
Member

upstream issue about knocking down attached/falling nodes in protected areas: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/12966

upstream issue about knocking down attached/falling nodes in protected areas: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/12966
flux self-assigned this 2022-11-15 00:34:20 +00:00
flux added the
3. source/engine
label 2022-11-15 00:34:25 +00:00
Member

That PR might solve the issue with other players accidentally removing ladders in existing areas. It doesn't solve the problem of people buildung and not even noticing that the ladders they placed for decoration or upper floor access develloped a life of their own.

That PR might solve the issue with other players accidentally removing ladders in existing areas. It doesn't solve the problem of people buildung and not even noticing that the ladders they placed for decoration or upper floor access develloped a life of their own.
Member

proposal: get rid of the default ladders and replace them w/ the ropes variants, and force those to always point up.

proposal: get rid of the default ladders and replace them w/ the ropes variants, and force those to always point up.
Member

Inside my storage tower, I placed these ladders everywhere. In it, I can quickly get to all areas. These ladders have a meaning as they were placed. They have not yet disintegrated. I don't want to have to do without it either. For me, that's part of the fun of the game.

I still haven't understood what prompted the changer to change? What should be so important as a reason to intervene so much in the constructions of many builders? Without a traceable justification, this is arbitrariness for me and thus a violation of the one rule.

Inside my storage tower, I placed these ladders everywhere. In it, I can quickly get to all areas. These ladders have a meaning as they were placed. They have not yet disintegrated. I don't want to have to do without it either. For me, that's part of the fun of the game. I still haven't understood what prompted the changer to change? What should be so important as a reason to intervene so much in the constructions of many builders? Without a traceable justification, this is arbitrariness for me and thus a violation of the one rule.
Member

I still haven't understood what prompted the changer to change? What should be so important as a reason to intervene so much in the constructions of many builders? Without a traceable justification, this is arbitrariness for me and thus a violation of the one rule.

there are 2 groups of players that use ladders this way: players who are exploiting game mechanics to do things they shouldn't, and players who're exploiting game mechanics because no-one thought to fix them. you fall in the latter group. personally i feel that the game is improved overall when we stop relying on surprising mechanics like not-attached ladders.

> I still haven't understood what prompted the changer to change? What should be so important as a reason to intervene so much in the constructions of many builders? Without a traceable justification, this is arbitrariness for me and thus a violation of the one rule. there are 2 groups of players that use ladders this way: players who are exploiting game mechanics to do things they shouldn't, and players who're exploiting game mechanics because no-one thought to fix them. you fall in the latter group. personally i feel that the game is improved overall when we stop relying on surprising mechanics like not-attached ladders.
Member

The server needs to evolve. I understand that. And I'm very grateful that there are people who, like you, give their time to make this great game possible for all of us. That's why I don't want to argue about stone ladders.

But perhaps we can find ways together in the future to make these developments more understandable for everyone? For example: stone ladders should no longer be used in this way. There is an announcement on the homepage with a short explanation of the reason, corresponding pictures and suggestions, which can be used instead to maintain the function of previous stone ladders, such as ropes.

I'm happy to do that. With web servers and homepages I have sufficient experience, as well as to contribute pictures and texts to the upcoming updates as described above. If I don't lua code myself, maybe I can contribute to our server in this way?

The server needs to evolve. I understand that. And I'm very grateful that there are people who, like you, give their time to make this great game possible for all of us. That's why I don't want to argue about stone ladders. But perhaps we can find ways together in the future to make these developments more understandable for everyone? For example: stone ladders should no longer be used in this way. There is an announcement on the homepage with a short explanation of the reason, corresponding pictures and suggestions, which can be used instead to maintain the function of previous stone ladders, such as ropes. I'm happy to do that. With web servers and homepages I have sufficient experience, as well as to contribute pictures and texts to the upcoming updates as described above. If I don't lua code myself, maybe I can contribute to our server in this way?
Member

I'm afraid the surprise is the suddenly attached ladder - not the one not caring about beeing attached. It breaks existing buildings and makes things needlessly strange for those of us who've used the ladders for many years. Attached nodes also start falling when the block they're attached to gets replaced by another one - because for a fraction of a moment there's no block there.

The price for the attached ladders (protection violation, existing buildings may be changed, build process made more annoying) is just too high - even if it were announced in time (in general, announcing chnages is a very good thing; and even those of us who are registered here may not notice each issue which might have a significant impact).

Idea: Wouldn't it be sufficient if the ladders stayed the way they have always been - except that before/after placing a new ladder on the map it is checked if it's properly placed or not - and else the ladder refuses to be placed? That way existing builds wouldn't be destroyed, and ladders once properly placed at a wall and then the material behind the wall beeing changed wouldn't pose a problem either. Attached nodes are sadly a pain in many ways.

I'm afraid the surprise is the suddenly attached ladder - not the one not caring about beeing attached. It breaks existing buildings and makes things needlessly strange for those of us who've used the ladders for many years. Attached nodes also start falling when the block they're attached to gets replaced by another one - because for a fraction of a moment there's no block there. The price for the attached ladders (protection violation, existing buildings may be changed, build process made more annoying) is just too high - even if it were announced in time (in general, announcing chnages is a very good thing; and even those of us who are registered here may not notice each issue which might have a significant impact). Idea: Wouldn't it be sufficient if the ladders stayed the way they have always been - except that before/after placing a *new* ladder on the map it is checked if it's properly placed or not - and else the ladder refuses to be placed? That way existing builds wouldn't be destroyed, and ladders once properly placed at a wall and then the material behind the wall beeing changed wouldn't pose a problem either. Attached nodes are sadly a pain in many ways.

I just griefed drgn's acacia tree machine thanks to this new ladder behavior. Sucks for them I guess.

I just griefed drgn's acacia tree machine thanks to this new ladder behavior. Sucks for them I guess.
flux added the
5. result/fixed
label 2023-01-31 01:02:17 +00:00
AliasAlreadyTaken was unassigned by flux 2023-01-31 01:02:24 +00:00
flux removed their assignment 2023-01-31 01:02:24 +00:00
Member

a fix for this is live, any future ladders fix will be designed to not break anything existing.

a fix for this is live, any future ladders fix will be designed to not break anything existing.
flux closed this issue 2023-01-31 01:03:04 +00:00
AliasAlreadyTaken added this to the 1.1.117 milestone 2023-02-01 05:48:17 +00:00
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Reference: your-land/bugtracker#3030
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